Freethought & Rationalism Archive

KitKit · 05-07-2003, 07:51 AM

maybe it's the war that brings out the religion in people? who knows, but it seems like i am bombarded with people's religion lately. i decided this could be a good thing (for me, not for them). it has prompted me to look for answers to many questions that i have ignored for years.

i was raised humanist, my parents haven't believed in a god since i was about 2 years old. but there have always been nagging doubts in my mind. i have always thought there was no god, but wasn't quite sure & thought that i could be wrong. i have always said "well i would hope that the fact that i am a good person would mean something to any god that might be up there & he won't send me to hell for thinking for myself."

within the last year, maybe 6 months, i have been more and more irritated with people pushing their religion on me (or trying to) so i have been all over the internet looking for information on both sides of the debate. i know now that there is no god. i have no doubt in my mind. but i would like to know why SO many people believe there is a god. how could so many people be fooled? how did it all get so out of hand? it's like a cult gone crazy & running amuck. i find myself hoping that one day "this too shall pass". then being sad because i know that it won't happen in my lifetime. then being happy hoping it will happen for my great or great great grandchildren. it's all very emotional. but i do have it under control. i am just seeking knowledge more than anything.

my husband came home the other day (he is agnostic, sort of. doesn't really know, thinks there may be something but till there's proof who knows & who cares anyway) so he comes home & says "you are really getting hot and heavy into this religion stuff." (with a negative tone in his voice) which set off a religious debate between us. no biggy. it was nice to practice my debating skills on someone i knew would still love me when i was done talking.

but the point is... why am i the one who is obsessed? how do you deal with that from people? what could possibly be wrong with wanting more knowledge? isn't that the nature of man, to want to learn? and what about all the damn people out there preaching their beliefs to me? why are they not the obsessed ones? i mean if you look at all the facts they should be right? somehow them preaching to me is ok, but me talking reason to them is rude. this makes no sense at all.

anyone have any ideas on this subject? how do you deal with the people irrationally thinking you have gone off the deep end?

Pyrrho · 05-07-2003, 09:56 AM

First of all, you are mistaken if you believe that preaching to others is always okay and telling them about disbelief is always rude. There is a time and a place and a manner for speaking about these kinds of things that is okay, and in other circumstances it is not. The fact that people are often not offended at their own rudeness may be misleading you in these matters. What you have been observing is hypocrisy, not proper conduct, if you have been speaking to others as they have spoken with you, but they view you as being rude and themselves as innocent.

Since you have never been religious, you seem to have difficulty understanding why others are religious. Perhaps it will be useful to think about other kinds of things. When you were a child, did you believe in Santa Claus? If so, why did you ever believe? And what ended that belief? And think about how the things that ended that belief are mostly not present for the belief in religion.

If you did not believe in Santa Claus, think about others who did. Why did they believe?

Well, religion is like belief in Santa Claus. Children are told that certain things are true. That fire is hot and painful if you touch it, along with many other facts of a like nature, and they are also told certain religious beliefs. When one is really young, one tends to believe it all; it is experience that teaches you that many people are liars, and that many people are mistaken. But that experience comes after one already has many beliefs. In the case of religion, typically, one is told many good things, like there is a heaven, and so forth, so there is often created the desire to believe. Further, typically, one is told that to doubt and question religion leads to damnation (or some such punishment), so there is fear that helps keep religion going. And there are social pressures to not discuss doubt (which you have been noticing).

Furthermore, people are not generally taught to think rationally, but instead, in schools, for example, are taught to memorize lists of "facts", which is what is done in religion as well. If children were taught about logic and informal fallacies while they were young, things might be different. And if they were taught about what science is all about, instead of memorizing lists of 'scientific facts', this could help matters, too.

You are upset that people are not rational. Join the club. Unfortunately, religion isn't the only area in which people are irrational, and many who escape from religion are still suckered into other silly beliefs. Or, rather, they don't escape from believing the other silly things that they have believed.

KitKit · 05-07-2003, 10:08 AM

ok, that all makes sense. i understand what you are saying. thank you.

i think i didn't clarify this in my first post: i don't spout off. i have only told a very few people how i feel & what i have learned recently & it has been people who have asked. but i am sure that people who are close to me have seen the books i am reading and the web sites i am looking at. those are the people who think i now have some obsession with religion. when really it is only a natural need for knowledge.

so how would you deal with those people's concerns that i am obsessed? especially since i don't talk much about it unless asked.

Pyrrho · 05-07-2003, 10:31 AM

You are welcome.

Why do you think they regard you as obsessed? Do they say that to you? And what does it matter if they do believe this?

But if you wish, you may simply tell them you are curious about the subject matter, about why people believe the things they believe. You could also take a broad view of the subject, and consider the beliefs of many types of religions, such as Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. I think you will find the same basic motives for beliefs in pretty much all cases. You might also want to take a look at things written by those who study psychology, if that is an aspect that interests you. You might be interested in reading something by Albert Ellis, who wrote an interesting article called "Is Religiosity Pathological?", which appeared in the Spring 1988 issue of Free Inquiry magazine. (If you search the Internet, you should be able to find where you can buy the back issue. If you search but cannot find it, let me know, and I might find it for you.)

DamagedGoods · 05-07-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Furthermore, people are not generally taught to think rationally, but instead, in schools, for example, are taught to memorize lists of "facts", which is what is done in religion as well. If children were taught about logic and informal fallacies while they were young, things might be different. And if they were taught about what science is all about, instead of memorizing lists of 'scientific facts', this could help matters, too.

I know this is not really related to the thread, but I'll say it anyway. The focus on rote memorization annoyed the hell out of me when I was in school, even when I was a theist of sorts. I think one of the biggest problems with cookie-cutter schooling is that the emphasis is on memorization rather than understanding.

I have to interact with people at work and school that learned only "Steps A,B,C" or "Equation X" to get some task done, and they have no foundation to help them understand why their memorized formulas work. Additionally, they have no desire or curiosity in learning more, which I view as an extension of the "I passed my exam, now I can forget all that stuff" mentality.

I think you are right - the general lack of understanding of science and logic in society contributes greatly to the volume of unquestioning belief we see around us. Of course, whenever anyone tries to impart critical thinking skills to children in public schools, an angry crowd of fundies comes out and makes noise about the Evil Atheist Conspiracy.

KitKit · 05-07-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DamagedGoods
I think you are right - the general lack of understanding of science and logic in society contributes greatly to the volume of unquestioning belief we see around us. Of course, whenever anyone tries to impart critical thinking skills to children in public schools, an angry crowd of fundies comes out and makes noise about the Evil Atheist Conspiracy.

that is SO true & SO frustrating! which is why i was thrilled to find the school my daughters will be attending starting this summer. it is a charter school. one of the things that impressed me about it was that they said "we don't teach the TAKS [formerly TAAS] test. we have to take it because we are funded by the state, but we don't study for it. we teach the children in this school how to use their brains & when it comes time to take the test they pass." so i am confident that my children won't have to deal with all the memorization crap in their school career and will learn critical thinking skills.

BUT that is all for a different thread, possibly a different forum altogether. sorry.

kkholiday · 05-07-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KitKit
ok, that all makes sense. i understand what you are saying. thank you.

i think i didn't clarify this in my first post: i don't spout off. i have only told a very few people how i feel & what i have learned recently & it has been people who have asked. but i am sure that people who are close to me have seen the books i am reading and the web sites i am looking at. those are the people who think i now have some obsession with religion. when really it is only a natural need for knowledge.

so how would you deal with those people's concerns that i am obsessed? especially since i don't talk much about it unless asked.

Who all thinks you are obsessed? Or rather, who has commented on it besides your husband? I'm a theist, but my boyfriend thinks I'm getting a little weird with the books (about atheism/theology) I've been reading and talking about lately as well as all the time I spend on infidels. He usually only throws around the "obsessed" term when he wants me to pay more attention to him.

KitKit · 05-07-2003, 01:08 PM

who thinks i'm obsessed?

well, my husband mentioned it. and a very good friend (who is atheist) mentioned it, but she didn't use the term obsessed. and another friend said something about being worried about me. and other than that, no one yet, but when the subject arises with anyone else, which is very well could, i'd like to know how to approach is so that i can reassure them that it is healthy to want to learn more and that i am not obsessed, just curious.

and of course it may look like i am spending a lot more time online reading stuff than i really am because i do graphic design work & i leave the window open in the background & get to it when i am at a stopping point with what i am working on.

of course every time i walk by my husband's computer there is something on there about harley davidsons. so i made sure to tell him i thought maybe he was "obsessed" with motorcycles. and his response was "i am looking at facts about bikes & riding, not just reading stuff about religion that someone wrote on the internet" (building a case for him to buy a bike, no doubt) don't ask me why his imformation is facts & mine is just "stuff people wrote".

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-07-2003, 03:13 PM

I would think that 3 people telling you that you are obsessed could mean that you are in fact a bit obsessed. Up to the individual to decide of obsession must be 'bad" though. Perhaps you are displaying obsessive behavior and you don't realize it.

My suggestion would be to ask the people who have commented on it what specifically you have done that drew them to that conclusion. When you know why they said it you will know whether their accusations have any merit.

-B

KitKit · 05-07-2003, 04:20 PM

that's sound advice. next time someone mentions it i will ask what about my behavior seems obsessive & then address those concerns appropriately.

thank you.

so i assume from everyone's posts that no one has encountered this problem. hmmm, i was hoping for some personaly accounts of this kind of situtation & the outcomes.

05-07-2003, 07:51 AM	#1
KitKit Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: earth Posts: 142	i am NOT obsessed! maybe it's the war that brings out the religion in people? who knows, but it seems like i am bombarded with people's religion lately. i decided this could be a good thing (for me, not for them). it has prompted me to look for answers to many questions that i have ignored for years. i was raised humanist, my parents haven't believed in a god since i was about 2 years old. but there have always been nagging doubts in my mind. i have always thought there was no god, but wasn't quite sure & thought that i could be wrong. i have always said "well i would hope that the fact that i am a good person would mean something to any god that might be up there & he won't send me to hell for thinking for myself." within the last year, maybe 6 months, i have been more and more irritated with people pushing their religion on me (or trying to) so i have been all over the internet looking for information on both sides of the debate. i know now that there is no god. i have no doubt in my mind. but i would like to know why SO many people believe there is a god. how could so many people be fooled? how did it all get so out of hand? it's like a cult gone crazy & running amuck. i find myself hoping that one day "this too shall pass". then being sad because i know that it won't happen in my lifetime. then being happy hoping it will happen for my great or great great grandchildren. it's all very emotional. but i do have it under control. i am just seeking knowledge more than anything. my husband came home the other day (he is agnostic, sort of. doesn't really know, thinks there may be something but till there's proof who knows & who cares anyway) so he comes home & says "you are really getting hot and heavy into this religion stuff." (with a negative tone in his voice) which set off a religious debate between us. no biggy. it was nice to practice my debating skills on someone i knew would still love me when i was done talking. but the point is... why am i the one who is obsessed? how do you deal with that from people? what could possibly be wrong with wanting more knowledge? isn't that the nature of man, to want to learn? and what about all the damn people out there preaching their beliefs to me? why are they not the obsessed ones? i mean if you look at all the facts they should be right? somehow them preaching to me is ok, but me talking reason to them is rude. this makes no sense at all. anyone have any ideas on this subject? how do you deal with the people irrationally thinking you have gone off the deep end?

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05-07-2003, 09:56 AM	#2
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	First of all, you are mistaken if you believe that preaching to others is always okay and telling them about disbelief is always rude. There is a time and a place and a manner for speaking about these kinds of things that is okay, and in other circumstances it is not. The fact that people are often not offended at their own rudeness may be misleading you in these matters. What you have been observing is hypocrisy, not proper conduct, if you have been speaking to others as they have spoken with you, but they view you as being rude and themselves as innocent. Since you have never been religious, you seem to have difficulty understanding why others are religious. Perhaps it will be useful to think about other kinds of things. When you were a child, did you believe in Santa Claus? If so, why did you ever believe? And what ended that belief? And think about how the things that ended that belief are mostly not present for the belief in religion. If you did not believe in Santa Claus, think about others who did. Why did they believe? Well, religion is like belief in Santa Claus. Children are told that certain things are true. That fire is hot and painful if you touch it, along with many other facts of a like nature, and they are also told certain religious beliefs. When one is really young, one tends to believe it all; it is experience that teaches you that many people are liars, and that many people are mistaken. But that experience comes after one already has many beliefs. In the case of religion, typically, one is told many good things, like there is a heaven, and so forth, so there is often created the desire to believe. Further, typically, one is told that to doubt and question religion leads to damnation (or some such punishment), so there is fear that helps keep religion going. And there are social pressures to not discuss doubt (which you have been noticing). Furthermore, people are not generally taught to think rationally, but instead, in schools, for example, are taught to memorize lists of "facts", which is what is done in religion as well. If children were taught about logic and informal fallacies while they were young, things might be different. And if they were taught about what science is all about, instead of memorizing lists of 'scientific facts', this could help matters, too. You are upset that people are not rational. Join the club. Unfortunately, religion isn't the only area in which people are irrational, and many who escape from religion are still suckered into other silly beliefs. Or, rather, they don't escape from believing the other silly things that they have believed.

05-07-2003, 10:08 AM	#3
KitKit Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: earth Posts: 142	ok, that all makes sense. i understand what you are saying. thank you. i think i didn't clarify this in my first post: i don't spout off. i have only told a very few people how i feel & what i have learned recently & it has been people who have asked. but i am sure that people who are close to me have seen the books i am reading and the web sites i am looking at. those are the people who think i now have some obsession with religion. when really it is only a natural need for knowledge. so how would you deal with those people's concerns that i am obsessed? especially since i don't talk much about it unless asked.

05-07-2003, 10:31 AM	#4
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	You are welcome. Why do you think they regard you as obsessed? Do they say that to you? And what does it matter if they do believe this? But if you wish, you may simply tell them you are curious about the subject matter, about why people believe the things they believe. You could also take a broad view of the subject, and consider the beliefs of many types of religions, such as Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. I think you will find the same basic motives for beliefs in pretty much all cases. You might also want to take a look at things written by those who study psychology, if that is an aspect that interests you. You might be interested in reading something by Albert Ellis, who wrote an interesting article called "Is Religiosity Pathological?", which appeared in the Spring 1988 issue of Free Inquiry magazine. (If you search the Internet, you should be able to find where you can buy the back issue. If you search but cannot find it, let me know, and I might find it for you.)

05-07-2003, 01:08 PM	#8
KitKit Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: earth Posts: 142	who thinks i'm obsessed? well, my husband mentioned it. and a very good friend (who is atheist) mentioned it, but she didn't use the term obsessed. and another friend said something about being worried about me. and other than that, no one yet, but when the subject arises with anyone else, which is very well could, i'd like to know how to approach is so that i can reassure them that it is healthy to want to learn more and that i am not obsessed, just curious. and of course it may look like i am spending a lot more time online reading stuff than i really am because i do graphic design work & i leave the window open in the background & get to it when i am at a stopping point with what i am working on. of course every time i walk by my husband's computer there is something on there about harley davidsons. so i made sure to tell him i thought maybe he was "obsessed" with motorcycles. and his response was "i am looking at facts about bikes & riding, not just reading stuff about religion that someone wrote on the internet" (building a case for him to buy a bike, no doubt) don't ask me why his imformation is facts & mine is just "stuff people wrote".

05-07-2003, 03:13 PM	#9
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	I would think that 3 people telling you that you are obsessed could mean that you are in fact a bit obsessed. Up to the individual to decide of obsession must be 'bad" though. Perhaps you are displaying obsessive behavior and you don't realize it. My suggestion would be to ask the people who have commented on it what specifically you have done that drew them to that conclusion. When you know why they said it you will know whether their accusations have any merit. -B

05-07-2003, 04:20 PM	#10
KitKit Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: earth Posts: 142	that's sound advice. next time someone mentions it i will ask what about my behavior seems obsessive & then address those concerns appropriately. thank you. so i assume from everyone's posts that no one has encountered this problem. hmmm, i was hoping for some personaly accounts of this kind of situtation & the outcomes.

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