Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spurly · 12-26-2002, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana

I admit the idea of living forever sounds good on the surface (as evidenced by its enduring popularity), but on closer inspection, it would be a nightmare. Its effectiveness as a persuasive tool depends upon people accepting it at face value but not actually thinking about what it would entail.

Think of the activity you most enjoy doing--something you've done your whole life, have perhaps acquired some skill at, and enjoy doing, reading about, talking about, perfecting, buying equipment for, etc.

Now imagine doing that activity every waking hour, without break, for the next ten years. How enjoyable do you think it'll be then? Twenty years?

A day to God is like a thousand years. Twenty years is not even a recognizable speck on an eternal time continuum. Now replace your favorite activity with worshipping God.

Fun? Fulfilling? Or SHEER HELL?

Now...imagine being God. He is from everlasting to everlasting, and he can do no wrong. He's perfect in every way. If you think you get bored on a rainy Saturday afternoon, try to imagine the agony of being a being who has always been, will always be, is perfect in every way, can do anything and knows everything. And cannot die.

Even if you could choose how you spend eternity--if you believe you aren't locked into the traditional heavenly activity--how long are you going to go before you run out of things to interest you?

Heinlein's Time Enough for Love springs to mind here, where Lazarus Long, the protagonist, has lived for over two millenia, is bored to tears, and no one will let him die.

An eternal soul necessarily implies the impossibility of ultimate death.

I can't imagine even wanting to believe in such a thing, let alone what a curse it would be to be such a being.

d

As a Christian, my view of heaven is not one where we stand, sit, or fall before a throne for all eternity worshipping the God who sits on the throne.

Instead, heaven is all about living in a relationship with the God who created us and the others who have chosen to live in a relationship with him.

Heaven is all about getting back to the way things were in the beginning. Hanging out with God, exploring all the things that God has created for us out of his love. Getting to know others and his creation.

That's the way it all began, and if you look closely, we will end up in much the same place. At the end of Revelation heaven is described. We see a river coming from the throne of God. Trees on the bank of the river that are yielding their fruits, and people living in relationship with God.

It will take an eternity to exhaust that relationship.

Kevin (who wants to live forever in relationship with God)

spurly · 12-26-2002, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave
I've always kind of wondered: If you were in heaven and let's say you began to realize after only 43.5 billion years have passed, that you've really had enough of the fundy bible thumping, harps, praising Jesus, watching athiest friends and relatives wailing and gnashing their teeth in hell, etc what could you do? Is it possible to commit suicide in heaven to end the boredom and agony? If you could commit suicide, would you then go into another heaven after that and start all over again? How do you commit suicide in heaven, anyway? I mean, how the hell could you get away from it all? Theists help out here!

I will try to help, though I don't know how much help I will be. Can one choose to leave heaven (i.e. to step out of a relationship with God)? It has happened before.

The Old Testament tells of Satan and his angels choosing to leave the presence of God. So maybe it is possible.

But my question is, why would any of us want to leave his side? Why would anyone want to end a relationship with him? I can't fathom making that choice after enjoying a relationship with him for 43.5 billion years.

Kevin

Answerer · 12-26-2002, 07:37 PM

Hey HelenM, are you talking about spiritual joy?

diana · 12-26-2002, 08:29 PM

Quote:

It will take an eternity to exhaust that relationship.

spurly,

With all due respect, relationships will eventually be exhausted. Eternity, by definition, will not.

Also, I'm curious: by what scriptural reference do you justify your idea of heaven?

Thanks,

d

Jobar · 12-26-2002, 09:53 PM

In Hindu mythology, God/Brahman exists in repeating cycles of time called 'kalpas', which are each some tens of millions of years long, IIRC. At the beginning of each kalpa, all things are fresh and perfect, and no pain or evil exists. As time passes, things degenerate and at the end, Shiva dances the dance of universal destruction. All existence collapses into nothingness, and remains so for an indeterminate time- until another kalpa starts. It's a way to get around holy boredom.

Except for the Hindu's time scale being too short, I think our own universe could be following such a cycle.

spurly · 12-26-2002, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana
spurly,

With all due respect, relationships will eventually be exhausted. Eternity, by definition, will not.

Also, I'm curious: by what scriptural reference do you justify your idea of heaven?

Thanks,

d

I know my idea of heaven isn't the typical orthodox idea of what heaven will be like, but I'm not your typical orthodox Christian. I tend to think out of the box on several issues that go against the flow of mainline Christianity.

As for your question, "by what scriptural reference do you justify your idea of heaven", I would have to say the overall scheme of the Bible.

If you remember, everything starts off in a beautiful garden paradise where man and woman enjoy a relationship of bliss with each other and their creator. Then sin enters the picture and with that, man and woman are escorted out of the presence of God and away from the tree of life.

The rest of Scripture is the account of God working with his people to get them back to the relationship that they once enjoyed with himself. Then, at the end of Scripture, we again find a garden like scene. There is no more curse, and we are once again able to be in the presence of God and eat from the tree of life forever.

By the way, I also think heaven will be right here on earth, after it is purged with fire. Where do I get this? From the picture of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to earth.

But if I am wrong - I will accept whatever God has in store.

Kevin

Darkblade · 12-27-2002, 01:35 AM

If I were a pseudogod, having the ability (constricted by logic, of course) to create or modify anything of a specified size and density in a specified amount of time, I would just destroy universes and create new ones when I was bored. Each new universe would have one (or more, if I so decided) more dimension than the last one, and I would add new forces of nature, senses, and emotions as well. That way things would continually get more complex, interesting, and beautiful. It would be a given that you would still need to, at least temporarily, erase your memory sometimes, unless you opted to put yourself into a state of essentially drugged ever-increasing bliss. It would also be fun to be able to create people (or lower life forms, for pets, perhaps) with specified or constrictedly pseudorandomized personalities. Living as this pseudogod for an eternity would probably be worthwhile, however, I would still want to have the ability to commit suicide, although it probably wouldn't make much sense to do so if you could just erase your memory.

HelenM · 12-27-2002, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer
Hey HelenM, are you talking about spiritual joy?

What do you mean by spiritual joy? I meant 'joy' as in, being in a state of great happiness. I don't think I understand your question

Helen

CALDONIA · 12-27-2002, 08:59 PM

The animals which we refer to as "dumb" have no concept of afterlife or living forever, they just exist and make the most (by instinct, mostly) of the present. If you watch a beloved pet die, you see them suffer, but not out of regret or self-recrimination.

I was born in 1954 and have no memories of that year or the next, and only a few dim ones of 1956. But I have and cannot ever have any idea of life prior to 1954 and I do not feel cheated because of that fact. At the same time, by 2054 I am likely to be "gone" and will have no consciousness of the time after my demise. I therefore believe that the wishful thinking and belief in Heaven, as to the extent that it takes away from my time in enjoying my existence or giving joy to others, is an utter waste of time and is evidence of unbounded self-esteem.

Darth Dane · 12-29-2002, 06:29 PM

Maybe thats why we reincarnate? because it is so boring being absolutely perfect. here we forget all the good things we came from, and try to find a meaning with it all. Then die, reincarnate and all over again.....forever and ever.... Why? because it is more fun!

DD - Lila Spliff

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12-26-2002, 07:37 PM	#23
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Hey HelenM, are you talking about spiritual joy?

12-26-2002, 09:53 PM	#25
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	In Hindu mythology, God/Brahman exists in repeating cycles of time called 'kalpas', which are each some tens of millions of years long, IIRC. At the beginning of each kalpa, all things are fresh and perfect, and no pain or evil exists. As time passes, things degenerate and at the end, Shiva dances the dance of universal destruction. All existence collapses into nothingness, and remains so for an indeterminate time- until another kalpa starts. It's a way to get around holy boredom. Except for the Hindu's time scale being too short, I think our own universe could be following such a cycle.

12-27-2002, 01:35 AM	#27
Darkblade Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am both omnipresent AND ubiquitous. Posts: 130	If I were a pseudogod, having the ability (constricted by logic, of course) to create or modify anything of a specified size and density in a specified amount of time, I would just destroy universes and create new ones when I was bored. Each new universe would have one (or more, if I so decided) more dimension than the last one, and I would add new forces of nature, senses, and emotions as well. That way things would continually get more complex, interesting, and beautiful. It would be a given that you would still need to, at least temporarily, erase your memory sometimes, unless you opted to put yourself into a state of essentially drugged ever-increasing bliss. It would also be fun to be able to create people (or lower life forms, for pets, perhaps) with specified or constrictedly pseudorandomized personalities. Living as this pseudogod for an eternity would probably be worthwhile, however, I would still want to have the ability to commit suicide, although it probably wouldn't make much sense to do so if you could just erase your memory.

12-27-2002, 08:59 PM	#29
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	The animals which we refer to as "dumb" have no concept of afterlife or living forever, they just exist and make the most (by instinct, mostly) of the present. If you watch a beloved pet die, you see them suffer, but not out of regret or self-recrimination. I was born in 1954 and have no memories of that year or the next, and only a few dim ones of 1956. But I have and cannot ever have any idea of life prior to 1954 and I do not feel cheated because of that fact. At the same time, by 2054 I am likely to be "gone" and will have no consciousness of the time after my demise. I therefore believe that the wishful thinking and belief in Heaven, as to the extent that it takes away from my time in enjoying my existence or giving joy to others, is an utter waste of time and is evidence of unbounded self-esteem.

12-29-2002, 06:29 PM	#30
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Maybe thats why we reincarnate? because it is so boring being absolutely perfect. here we forget all the good things we came from, and try to find a meaning with it all. Then die, reincarnate and all over again.....forever and ever.... Why? because it is more fun! DD - Lila Spliff

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