ProNihil

There is a prevalent worldview that states that peace at all costs, is preferable to war. I myself have thought long and hard about this. When do the free people of the world stand up to tyranny and oppression? When do I, as an american stand up to the threats of an oppressive regime which kills it's subjects with poison gas and murderous plans only to keep it's "god given" position within the international game?

Let me state here and now, that I love my country, and the freedoms that it's government provides. I am allowed to say what I want, without fear of reprisal from a government that is fearful of it's citizens viewpoints. I recognise that my government is not perfect, but is is the only one on the face of the earth that allows me totally free speech in either the support or condemnation of it.

Those in opposition to the status quo, in oppoistion to the freedom which allows my viewpoint to be heard, I say this- Freedom is the epitomy of the allowing of opposite viewpoints of the very nature of opposition to be heard. The level upon which one does this is to be judged by his or her courage and social support. The "right" shall be judged by ones own peers, in the arena of justice. It is thence that I ask you, souls of impermanence, minds of personal conviction, what is the right? Are we, as americans evil? Or, as our own conscience dictates, are we at least on the right track? I for one, would die rather than accept and bow down to the dictatorial will of an oppressive madman. I am free, and that, in the long run, means that my own personal opinions count for something. It means that my life counts for something, that I am worth something. I wonder how many Iraq'is would love to have this same freedom, and are willing to die for threir voices to be heard above the din of an oppressive and dare I say, "wrong" dictatorial system?

John Hancock

So why support the new King George and his trampling of constitutional rights and checks and balances. Wake up Mr. Gitter your being sold down the river.

Martin Buber

Sojourner553

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ProNihil
There is a prevalent worldview that states that peace at all costs, is preferable to war. I myself have thought long and hard about this. When do the free people of the world stand up to tyranny and oppression"

I disagree. I think the prevalent worldview of Bush is war at all costs is preferable to peace.

Here is a good link that may will give you some background.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...905340,00.html

LogicMage

You havent read the patriot acts have you? Do you even know about Total Information Awareness?

peacenik

Well that may very well be your own preference, but that doesn't mean that you get to impose your preference on the people of Iraq. They may prefer to live with dimished freedoms rather than being killed by bombs dropped by "liberators." Furthermore, it's easy for you to make that statement from your position. You will never be asked to sacrifice your life in order to defend your freedom, so you really don't know what you would do if confronted with this decision.

Again, who are we to determine that Iraqi citizens must be killed for their own sake. It has been estimated by the U.N. that this war could kill up to 500,000 Iraqi civilians, and Andwrew Natsios, a Bush administration official who heads the U.S. Agency fo International Development admitted on PBS's new hour with Jim Lehrer that this war would create up to 2.5 million refugees. That makes a lot of since. We're going to "liberate" Iraqis by displacing them and killing them!

I agree with you that Saddam operates an oppressive regime, but it must be the Iraqi people, not the United States, who determine whether it is worth their life to overthrow the bastard.

Amen-Moses

What makes people think that the people of Iraq don't feel that they are as free as we may think we are?

The people of Germany in 1938 would have said they were free, the people of Japan in 1938 would have said the same. No doubt the people of China feel as free now as they have ever done and the people of North Korea probably feel just as free as those in the south.

What makes us so damn sure that we are any more free?

Currently my government is partaking of a course of action that we the people disagree with, does that make us free or not?

Should the Iraqi's come and invade us to make us free?

Amen-Moses

Jesse

peacenik:
Again, who are we to determine that Iraqi citizens must be killed for their own sake. It has been estimated by the U.N. that this war could kill up to 500,000 Iraqi civilians

This estimate is based on a lot of very questionable assumptions. Check out the following Slate article:

How Many Dead Iraqis? - Guessing about collateral damage

peacenik:
I agree with you that Saddam operates an oppressive regime, but it must be the Iraqi people, not the United States, who determine whether it is worth their life to overthrow the bastard.

In fact, immediately after the first Gulf War people rebelled against Hussein's government and overthrew it in either 14 or 15 out of 18 provinces (I've seen different numbers, I'm not sure which is right). But they didn't get U.S. support afterwards, so Hussein killed the rebels. One Iraqi exile describes the rebellion here:

And here's a longer article by an Iraqi exile who actually participated in one of the rebellions:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030...waij021003&c=1

The point is, it's reasonable to conclude that there are quite a lot of Iraqis who'd be willing to risk their lives to depose Saddam Hussein if they thought there was any reasonable chance they'd succeed.

garraty

Now I don't want to bitch but do you mean your form of government, or just your government?

It shits me no end that some Americans think they are the only ones who can protest thier government.

Jesse

garraty:
Now I don't want to bitch but do you mean your form of government, or just your government?

It shits me no end that some Americans think they are the only ones who can protest thier government.

There may be a few other governments that offer the same level of free speech as the U.S., but it'd be a pretty short list. Many (most? all?) European countries have laws against various forms of "hate speech" (see this recent law mandating internet censorship, for example), and I don't think any have anything resembling a constitutional guarantee of the right to free speech. Likewise, separation of church and state may not be unique to the U.S., but there are quite a lot of European countries where the church is still supported by taxpayers. As for non-western countries that guarantee free speech or church & state separation, it's possible there are a few, but I doubt there are many, and there may well be none.

Danya

The Iraqi people have not been able to overthrow Saddam because they are not united. Who should overthrow Saddam? The Kurds? The Sunni's? The Shi'as?

They have not been able and are still unable to find a solution that will work because they would have to overcome their ethnic and religious differences first. Which group should hold the most power? Despite who the dictator is, Saddam or the U.S. or some third party, those problems need to be resolved. No one has come up with how to do it yet...not even Bush unless you count U.S. occupation as a solution. The Iraqi's don't.

My faith in this administration to build a flourishing government there when it couldn't do it in Afgahnistan with world support is zilch. Yet the same promises are being repeated that were told to the Afghan people. The same Germany/Japan scenerios are being trotted out again as if Ahfgahnistan never happend and Bush didn't already fail.

Bush cannot even solve problems here at home, yet we are going to allow the fate of the Middle East to depend on his leadership there? Is dictatorship preferable to civil war? Let them be the judge and let them decide how and when. If your heart is bleeding for them ease sanctions. Anything else only exacerbates the problems for them and for us.