Maleficus

Well, I was thinking about going to college in Texas.. To California instead I suppose.

RobertE

Remember back when George I was President and one of the evening news magazines followed him on a jaunt to a grocery store? Apparently he hadn't been inside one in the past 30 years and was flabbergasted by that newfangled technology known as a bar code scanner. He didn't have a clue what to do with or how to pay for his groceries.

I think they let Rosario do all the shopping from then on.

RobertE

I hadn't considered that. You're absolutely right.

The term "useful idiots" springs to mind.

fromtheright

"As nations can not be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes & effects providence punishes national sins, by national calamities."
George Mason, August 22, 1787, Federal Convention. Quoted, BTW, not from David Barton, but from Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787 Reported by James Madison, W.W. Norton & Co., 1987.

Damn those Framers, what awful Falwellians.

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: fromtheright ]

RufusAtticus

George Mason? What did he do?

Ragnarok

This is totally unsurprising actually. I can tell you, from my days as a fundy, that the fundy girls were not actually any more "chaste" than their heathen counterparts. But they were much less likely to use birth control since doing so constitutes planning for sin.
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

ex-preacher

Here's a helpful site on comparing states, brought to you by the Census Bureau.
<a href="http://www.census.gov/statab/www/ranks.html" target="_blank">http://www.census.gov/statab/www/ranks.html</a>

On almost every measure of societal well-being, the Bible Belt states do much worse than the "secular" states in the Northwest and Northeast. The states with the highest rates of church attendance consistently top the charts of divorce rates, teen pregnancy, infant mortality, obesity, poverty, illiteracy, heart disease, etc. Can it be a mere coincidence that Tornado Alley cuts right across the Bible Belt? Truly, God hates Baptists.

cydonia

I'm kind of in a limbo state politically. I always have supported the republican party. But since deconverting from Xtianity, i have questioned a lot of things. Now it has come to the point that i realize there really is a seperation of church and state, and that America was never a Christian nation. People who believe opposite of that i would not want to vote for, probably like most of you. But i also feel that just because there are some religious freaks in charge who are bad for the country, it doesn't automatically make their political opponents (liberals or democrats in this instance) right by default. They have their own problems that in my opinion are just as harmful as any religious brainwashing. They have their own ways of attacking the mind.

Buffman

I just finished reading Toto's post of the "Houston Chronicle's" article. Fortunately Oresta caught the Barton propaganda. I noted three interesting items including that one.

Texas GOP spokesman Ted Royer said the party is not trying to dictate religion but is trying to make religious people feel welcome participating in politics. "We simply believe people of faith should be welcomed in the political process and should not be intimidated to the point of being ashamed of their religion," Royer said.

What utter nonsense! Just about the only people welcomed to the political process in this country, and elected to office, are those professing a faith belief in the supernatural. If there is any intimidating being done, then it must be by those holding a religious faith belief . What this propagandist [Royer] is attempting to accomplish is to paint all Democrats as non-religious people. Fortunately State Democratic Chairwoman Molly Beth Malcolm saw right through that ploy. However, the religious right has been extremely successful in painting "liberals" as non-religious. That is why they work so diligently at attempting to make it appear that all Democrats are liberals. Unfortunately, some of the actual liberal Democrats have not seemed able to make a strong case for their philosophical policies.

Barton said if the state GOP platform has more faith in it, then the document reflects the national mood. He said President Bush has proclaimed seven national days of prayer, the most of any president since James Madison.

Oresta's post gives the overview, However, let's look a little deeper. Barton claims that President Bush (I must assume that he is referring to the current Bush) has proclaimed "seven" national days of prayer. I can only find "four" official proclamations. ( 23 Jan 01, 30 Apr 01, 13 Sep 01 and 26 Apr 02...and a possible partial if you count 21 May 2002.)

<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/proclamations/" target="_blank">http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/proclamations/</a>

<a href="http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=52" target="_blank">http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=52</a>

(Extract)
But some founders were not keen on this sort of government promotion of religion. James Madison opposed governmental "religious proclamations" for several reasons, including, "They seem to imply and certainly nourish the erronious idea of a national religion." And Thomas Jefferson, in an 1808 letter to the Reverend Samuel Miller, said, "Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government." He was even against recommending a day of fasting and prayer. Doing so, he explained, would "indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises, which the Constitution has directly precluded them from." He was worried that even a suggestion from the government could be taken the wrong way: "It must be meant, too, that this recommendation [of a day of prayer] is to carry some authority, and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion."
(End extract)

<a href="http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0324_National_Day_of_Pray.html" target="_blank">http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0324_National_Day_of_Pray.html</a>

Barton goes on to claim that this is the most of any president since James Madison. Why James Madison? He was the fourth President. Does Barton's statement create the impression that our fourth President invoked more official days of prayer than our first three presidents? Upon what sources does Barton base his contention?

But his [Barton's] scholarship also has been questioned by some advocates of church-state separation. Some of these critics contend that Barton took out of context quotes from the nation's early leaders about their views on religion in government.

Personally I found this concluding remark to be rather wimpy. Barton's historical scholarship hasn't simply been challenged by Church-State separationists. It has been challenged because he made things up.

Toto

George Mason was a friend of Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Virginia Bill of Rights. He is generally considered to be responsible for the Bill of Rights to the US Constitution. He is the favorite founder for the new conservatives apparently because 1) he was anti-federalist, and anti-big government and 2) <a href="http://www.pixi.com/~kingdom/virginia1776.html" target="_blank">this clause from the VBR</a>:

To me, this looks like a basically Deist statement, since it exhalts reason over doctrinal purity, with the addendum of exhorting Christians to practice what they preach. But I can see how it would appeal to someone trying to prove that this is a Christian nation.