Amen-Moses

Then you must put me in the same boat, as a father I'm intensely interested in the moral implications in my childrens education and I believe that lying to them about anything, religion, santa claus, politics or even sex is counter productive.

What I am most fascinated by is the way other adults seem to think it is a necessary thing to do.

Currently my daughter is being ostracised for talking about sexual matters (she is "overly sexualised" apparently) yet at her age that was one subject that all my peers were most interested in, just because she has been brought up to neither fear sex nor to keep it behind the bike shed (i.e out of the view of sensitive adults) she is treated like a freak!

Strangely enough my son is exactly the same but his behaviour is deemed perfectly normal, what gives?

Amen-Moses

NHGH

Really?

No criminologist goes into the field because he has a genuine intellectual interest in why serial killers behave the way they do? All criminologists pursue their studies in a spirit of self-sacrifice, forsaking the opportunity to apply their talents to fields which they would find intellectually rewarding?

No doubt criminologists feel that their work makes the world a better place, but the same can probably be said of people working in any field of academia (and in many non-academic fields, for that matter). I doubt that that's their primary motivation.

echidna

Surprise, surprise, Fr Andrew's favourite subject of sex and children raises its head yet again. Fr Andrew, you were never requested to come up with your little scenario last year. You managed to fantasise and elaborate on that one all by yourself.

Ronin

As noted in my post, I was referring to your request:

"If you want my thresholds, you'll have to give me some time to sort them out."

...so, I responded with "I am not your keeper"...inferring that you should not feel limited by me at all in formulating your response regarding thresholds.

There are no particular time periods or requirements to respond.

It is entirely up to you and your ability to articulate your position.

Yes.

From the OP ~

Are there reasons beyond pregnancy and disease (and, to stave off irrelevancies, I'll add danger from opportunistic pedophiles) why children should not experiment with sex at whatever age they become interested...and in whatever direction their curiosity takes them?

I have subsequently presented a reason:

Children do not have the same capacity to make organized and formative decisions as adults, therefore, any sexual contact with the adult is a violation of the child's personal liberty and is nonconsensual.

So, regardless of opportunistic pedophiles, the child's lack of ability to make organized and formative decisions damages the child's personal liberty...and, I'll add, may cause serious mental illness stemming from a lack of self-esteem/respect and sovereignty.

As can be viewed by reading the thread discussion, and at your request to 'generate discussion' we then began examining my offering and any additional considerations regarding your responses to it.

Now that we have put that distraction aside and for the purposes of generating discussions, have you formulated your thresholds and will you provide answers to the questions I have posed:

What would you consider 'bullying'?

What brings you to the conclusion that shoving sharp objects into various bodily orifices would actually be self-destructive, if you were monitoring the five year old making such an exploration?

I also understand how this can be an emotional issue for most people...please don't worry about it.

Odemus

I don't doubt that many if not the majority of criminologists pursue their careers out of intellectual interest, but the outcome is that they use the knowledge in a function which is both beneficial to society and a sacrifice. I consider any job where one is forced to remain emotionally detatched because the work would otherwise destroy one's humanity to be an act of self sacrifice.

Mr. Andrew on the other hand seems to exhibit a far too unhealthy interest in children and their sexuality. I doubt that any of the questions he poses here are anything other than an attempt for approval.Sorry but I don't see a comparison.I acknowledge that there are legitimate fields of study in the area of childhood sexuality, but Mr. Andrew is definately not in even in the same arena. I wouldn't have this guy living next door to me, would you?

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): I see...you were being cute. Spare me in the future, please...and just say what you mean.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ronin
Children do not have the same capacity to make organized and formative decisions as adults, therefore, any sexual contact with the adult is a violation of the child's personal liberty and is nonconsensual.
(Fr Andrew): We continue to disagree on that point, but my OP had nothing to do with sexual contact between adults and children.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): Odemus, I doubt that anything I say will alter your prejudice against me, but I am interested in sexual freedom for children only as the best way to change the morbid sexual attitudes of our culture. We, as adults, already have the baggage...children are clean slates.

Ronin

That was exactly what I meant...and I merely presented a further clarification as you appeared confused by the simple reply.

It was not my intention to offend your sensibilities. Since I appear to have done so with that observation, I apologize.

Your OP had nothing to do with opportunistic pedophiles, Fr.Andrew, and I provided another reason, which I'll state again ~

Children do not have the same capacity to make organized and formative decisions as adults and therefore, sexual contact is a violation of the child's personal liberty and is nonconsensual.

So, regardless of opportunistic pedophiles, the child's lack of ability to make organized and formative decisions damages the child's personal liberty...and, I'll add, may cause serious mental illness stemming from a lack of self-esteem/respect and sovereignty.


You were the one that had no problem with discussing the furtherance of any tangent by including 'adults', with this assertion:

I merely addressed the variance from the OP that you seemed willing to address as well.

Now that we have put that distraction aside and for the purposes of generating discussions, have you formulated your thresholds and will you provide answers to the questions I have posed:

What would you consider 'bullying'?

What brings you to the conclusion that shoving sharp objects into various bodily orifices would actually be self-destructive, if you were monitoring the five year old making such an exploration?

SLUGFly

Hi all, I'm new to this forum. I didn't read all 4 pages so some of what I have to say may be redundant (sorry )

I think we have two separate problems with this. One is lack of education makes people afraid of anything to do with a body or sex. I had a friend who introduced me to her Jewish friend. The Jewish friend said that her very religious family was (as a matter of doctrine) very open about sexuality and as children they always had "naked by the fire fridays" where the whole family would take off their clothes and sit by the fire together and talk, read, play boardgames, whatever. The end result is confidence and a deeper and more committed love towards her boyfriend than most who are kids in a candy shop once they hit adolescence.

As for the second problem, actual sex involving children (which as I think I see, seems to be where the thread is going now), this has huge repurcussions and perhaps is the absolute biggest social taboo we have. Tell somebody you killed a man and they will convince you to turn yourself in, they will be afraid of you sure but a friend would likely act in compassion to help you fix your life. Tell somebody you had sex with your friends daughter or a student or something of the like and they'll never speak to you again. You'll lose all social contact you had with people and if you go to prison you likely will be sent back out in a box.

But, to not be afraid of a taboo doesn't mean doing it, it means not being afraid to disect it. There are 3 problems with sex with children. First is free will, a child (as was mentioned) doesn't have the perspective to make a good decision about something like this (assuming the child is given the freedom to make a decision... otherwise it's a whole new can of worms). Second is physical ability, I had a friend in university who had sex when she was 11 or 12 and now she can't have children. There's delicate things inside our bodies and if they're tampered with before they're ready things get broken.

But assuming freewill and assuming no penetration we get to the third problem. Social repurcussions and morality. If we lived in a culture where sex with children was permitted (ancient roman politics?) then with health kept in mind everything would be fine. But as it is, we don't. Assume that your household believes that incest is fine and that sex with children is fine. Your child could still grow up having a healthy view of sexuality, a sincere love for both parents and a level head. But our society doesn't permit it so either the child must keep it secret (which is psychologically damaging on its own) or will become an outcast.

Freethinkers though we may be, we have to adapt to our environments and in our environment the only view of child sexuality is that it must not happen at least until after puberty and even then not between child and adult. Because the taboo is so strong it must remain a taboo.

In all of this I never touched on rape, deception or using power and control to get sex because this is the taboo within the taboo. These are the things that (according to my own approach) should not happen with anyone regardless of age or age difference.

I had sex with a 12 year old once.

uh... I was 14 though

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): You didn't offend me in the least, so no apology is necessary. Please be less cryptic in the future, so we won't have to go through this a lot.


(Fr Andrew): Yes, it did.


(Fr Andrew): I appreciate your continuing to post this, ~ronin, but the fact is that a) we disagree, and b) it has nothing to do with the OP.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ronin
[B]
You were the one that had no problem with discussing the furtherance of any tangent by including 'adults', with this assertion:

(Fr Andrew): I'm trying to clear up misunderstandings as I go along, as quickly as I can.
I still don't understand how questioning my feelings with respect to bullying and self-destructive behavior among children is relevant.
Perhaps if you stopped concentrating on "snide" and "cute" and went for clarity?