dangin

If they pull the "god of the gaps" stuff. You know, what we don't understand is goddidit, then point out that each year the gaps get smaller, in the past the sun was a chariot pulled by apollo's horses, because understanding the solar system used to be a gap. And then point out that filling in the gaps is an incredibly undiginified and puny place for a deity.

Wiploc

If you want an illustration, you can always use the refrigerator argument: The argument of a man who says the universe was made for man is no stronger than the argument of refrigerator mold that says the refrigerator was made for it.

crc

Anti-Creedance Front

Atheists taking shots at deists REALLY pisses me off. Albert Einstein was basically a deist. He's one of the most rational thinkers to ever live. Deists, agnostics, atheists, pantheists... we are all in the same boat. Don't ever burn your bridges. And don't form a literal belief that no higher powers exist in the world. Then you wouldn't be a true skeptic, you'd be dogmatic. One must always leave options open. Don't be Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

Anathema

Yes! And this is the point that I always tell theists: that they MUST leave the door open to the possibility that God is unreal.

Wiploc

Mmm. Well, here's the thing: The argument of a man who says the universe was made for man is no stronger than the argument of refrigerator mold that says the refrigerator was made for it.
That's just true.

And, now that you point it out, it does apply to deists as well as Christians, doesn't it? That's not my fault. I was asked for a response to the Design argument. The Refrigerator argument does the job with vivid succinctness. It's a slam dunk, so I shared it.

I don't see what you're pissed about. I certainly agree with your Big Ship metaphor, but I can't say that means we should avoid refuting Christian arguments for fear of offending overly- touchy shipmates.

Madalyn lived a hard life. She did a lot for us (all of us in your "ship"). She was brittle and harsh, but she was always nice to me. Yes, she took abrasive positions, but she was striving for recognition under very trying conditions. *Her* anger I do understand. The worst I've faced for my atheism is a bit of vandalism. She lived with constant harsh oppression, frequent violence, including murder attempts. If our ship has a patron saint, it is Madalyn. Hers can be the image carved as our bowsprit.

May you do as much for freedom.
crc

Anti-Creedance Front

Yes, but she her intention was not to support those "other people" in the same boat, but to put atheism over everything else. I, as an agnostic, was particularly offended that she made arguments against agnosticism. That's about the same as fundamentalism to me, making the solid statement that "a higher power does not exist, never has existed, and never will exist". You have about as much evidence to prove that as theists do to prove a loving, fatherlike God exists in the universe. I'm not saying it's wrong to believe God does not exist, but just don't be a jerk about it. Then you're not appealing to others, and you're also mirroring Christian apologetics.

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Doesn't Occam's Razor pretty much slice-and-dice diesm and/or pantheism?

I mean, if the universe were 'God', how would you know? How could you separate the 'God' aspect, from the 'universe' aspect, in order to determine that the universe is also 'God'?

Again, we don't have a 'non-God' universe with which to compare our own...

It's less complicated to just say the universe is itself, than to try to overlay the additional--and unsubstantiated--concept 'God' over the universe.

Keith.

Anti-Creedance Front

Occam's Razor... I heard about that earlier from someone. Yes, it is simpler to say that the universe just exists, but you don't understand the lure of pantheism and deism for people who just don't like traditional religion. They are tools helping lead people away from organized religion. It may sound a bit devious, but that's what I think. So to attack them, you'd actually be helping reinforce that the god of Abraham is the only choice other than atheism.

Keith Russell

Creedance:

What?

There are numerous religious options besides diesm, pantheism, atheism--or the 'God of Abraham'.

Are you not aware of paganism, New Ageism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, Central and South American Shamanism, Voodoo, Santeria, ancestor worship, etc.?

I don't recognize some falsehoods as 'better' or 'less untrue' than others. Pantheism is wrong for the same reason any other religious belief is wrong; it opposes reality in favour of some mystical, supernatural, undefined--and undefinable--'something else'.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

I oppose all unreason.

Keith.

Secular Pinoy

That is just special pleading. If we cannot challenge deism, then why stop there? We might as well pack up our bags and close down this forum. As skeptics, we must be consistent with our skepticism. There are no sacred cows and dogma, all must be subject to rational scrutiny.