GPLindsey

My view on these outlook, which I've experienced many times, is that it is a question of whether existence has meaning in the subjective sense or in an objective "outside looking in" sense. I'm perfectly ready to assert my life provides me ample meaning because of my family, friends, work, interests, etc. But it is when I pause and think about the totality of existence, and know that one day the universe will expand into a blank nothingness...that get's a little depressing. That is why believing in a God external to the Universe who wants it to continue is so appealing--it gives it a purpose.

Douglas J. Bender

Free Thinkr said:
In many cases, that likely is what prompts a person to "search" for God - the need to believe that "there is a purpose to life". However, there is no "damning evidence against the Bible", and there is plenty of reason to believe the Bible is accurate in its history, science, and teachings. What is the "evidence" which you claim is so "damning against the Bible"?

In Christ,

Douglas

Wyrdsmyth

Doesn't the Bible say the sun revolves around the earth? And rabbits chew their cud? And the earth is something like 7000 years old?

Actually, I sympathize with people who want to believe, even if it flies in the face of cold, hard reason. Religion binds people together. It provides a kind of support system, both socially and internally. Some people really need that, or think they do.

But once you start waking up to the fact that what is comforting you is a delusion and doesn't really make any sense when you examine it, it's difficult -- and, I think, eventually impossible -- to keep believing. It's kind of like when you're waking up from a really great dream, and you realize you're waking up, and you try desperately to go back to sleep to "get back in the dream."

It's too late.

Y'know what? It's just too late for me to go back to the days of believing in angels with flaming swords at the Garden of Eden, Balaam's talking ass, Elijah flying around in a fiery chariot, etc. I could no longer believe such things any more than I could believe in the stories of the ILIAD or the VOLSUNGA Saga.

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

Douglas J. Bender

Wyrdsmyth,


You asked:
No, other than in a "poetic" fashion, even as we nowadays say, but do not literally mean, "The Sun will rise at 5:42 a.m.."

I believe the Jewish phrase used does not literally mean that they "chew their cud", but that it refers to some other gastronomic or such thing. I read a bit about it once, when reading up on supposed Bible contradictions, and the explanation was sufficient to show that there was no necessary contradiction, except perhaps in a faulty English translation.

Yes, and there's plenty of scientific evidence to support that age for the Earth.

Denying reality even for "moral support" is not a good thing. I'm glad that Christianity does no such thing.

Yes, that's why I eventually gave up believing in evolution. I was comforted to think that there was no God and could live as I preferred, but I eventually realized evolution is a delusion. I could not keep believing in it.

Not in my case, anyway. It's more like when I woke up, I realized what I had thought was a really great dream was actually a nightmare.

The evidence supporting the truth of the Bible is far greater than any which might in any sense be considered to support any of the "supernatural" claims of the Iliad or the "Volsunga" Saga. Unless one tests the claims, there is no real reason to reject anything, even the "Volsunga" (which, if it's one of those Norse/Celtic/Viking myths, I've already "tested" and rejected). What are your specific reasons for not believing the Bible?

In Christ,

Douglas

MadMordigan

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Wyrdsmyth

Douglas,

Are you the slightest bit interested in learning, or are you just bound and determined that the "Bible must be right, because it says it is"?

Or... no, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting, I'm the one who's deluded. Obviously, carbon-dating is a conspiracy, the fossil record is a fraud, and geologists who don't acknowledge a flood occurring five thousand years ago are obviously possessed by the Devil. If someone points out a contradiction or error in the Bible, it must be "a bad translation" or "out of context." Douglas, why don't you go compose up a "good translation" of the Bible, and start distributing it so we poor saps can read it the way God meant it to be read?

Come on, Douglas... De-convert. Join us. Be one of us.

Give up the ghost.

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

zamboniavenger

From my own experience, I continued going to church and calling myself a xtian for a very long time after I stopped rationally believing in god because I really didn't like the idea of not going to heaven. Even now, sometimes I seriously hope I'm wrong about god because I think I'd prefer an eternity in hell to not existing at all. Death did, and still does scare the shit out of me, and kept me going to church long after I seriously gave up on god.
...and real quick
Douglas
Actually, if I'm not mistaken this is EXACTLY what we mean when we say this.

Tercel

I would also be fascinated to hear of this previously unknown "damning evidence". No doubt you have solid evidence that disproves absolutely everything from Genesis to Revelation...

Just a couple of questions to go:
Do you know how many checkable historical details the writer of Luke/Acts makes?
Do you know how many of these have been checked and found to be accurate?

For the great part of human history, everyone has believed the sun revolved around the earth. That the writers of the Bible believed the "science" of their day, and included the idea incidentally into their work is no big deal.
It's not as if the Bible has God declaring that the sun revolves around the earth.

Rabbits do do something very similar though. The writers obviously knew rabbits perfectly well: If the term "chew their cud" is not quite technically 100% accurate, who cares? -They knew what they meant, and we know what they meant.

Only if you insist on taking an extremely literal reading.

Vorkosigan

I would also be fascinated to hear of this previously unknown "damning evidence". No doubt you have solid evidence that disproves absolutely everything from Genesis to Revelation...

Whether its history is correct is really irrelevant. It claims to contain some kind of higher truth, but obviously the incoherent, contradictory, picayune, patriarchical nonsense of the peoples who wrote it. No attention need be paid to it in the one area where it claims to be important, any more than we need pay attention to the Pupol Voh, the Vedas, or any other ancient collection of low morality, tall tales and scientific nonsense.

Michael

Methos

One of the main reasons why I went to church for 4 months last year was to find a sense of belonging. I that overrode anything related to belief. In fact, I'm not sure if I really believed anything that was said in that church, or if I stayed for as long as I did (believe me, four months was a long time) because of the large group of people there who supposedly believed the same thing that I wanted to believe. I still miss the comraderie with so many people, and sometimes feel envious of my friend who has gone hardcore Christian and is meeting lots of new people. But then I realized if I wanted to be with sheep then I'd live on a farm .

In addition, the church that I went to, having over 5000 members (many of whom are college age), seems like one big dating scene to a lot of people. They may be there in part because of religion, but they're also there to meet their next girlfriend/boyfriend. Hell, that would probably be the only way that anybody could get me to start going to church again .

Anyway, the group-think that you get when at church is very powerful. It starts to become a primary motivator for being there, and you pay less attention to what is actually being said by the pastor. And before you know it, you're going to it five nights a week and don't know how to get out.

Boy am I glad that I only went Sunday mornings, and got out after four months. Do I miss being with a large group of people? Of course, but I don't miss weekly "believe or burn" and "the end is coming soon" sermons which annoyed the hell out of me.

Eric

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Eric Yauger ]</p>