Freethought & Rationalism Archive

leonarde · 10-15-2002, 01:33 PM

Posted by Ion yesterday:

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:

...
Yeah, those silly professors of ancient history, what do they know!!

Cheers!

What's my alternative?

Since the existence
/non-existence of certain persons is chiefly the
concern of professional historians you could:

1)bow to their expertise and professional judgement.

2)offer a plausible explanation as to why so many
of these historians are mistaken.

Cheers!

Butters · 10-15-2002, 02:43 PM

Well, since I see Van did not answer my post, I will assume that he is unable to refute it, and consider that matter closed.

I would like to take issue with a couple of statements made by Leonarde

"Well currently there are
about 1 billion people (out of 6 billion or so total) who adhere to the belief that Jesus was a
real personage."

Appeal to numbers is a false argument.
How many people believed in Isis, Zeus, etc.?
How many people believe in Buddah?
How many people believed the Earth was flat?
How many people believed the Sun revolved around the Earth (supported by the Christian church)?
How many people believe in UFOs?
How many people believe we only use 10% of our brains?
Believing something just because you have been told its true, does not make it true, no matter how many people are sucked in!

"Most of those 1 billion people understand that Jesus was simultaneously divine."

No, most of those people BELEIVE he was divine

"In addition a few hundred million Muslims believe
that Jesus existed too (though they think he was
merely a prophet not divine)."

Of course those same Muslims believe that Muhomad recieved the word of God from an angel, should we also believe that? Since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, will it be true when they outnumber Christians? And lets not forget that some 4 billion people in the world think they are both myths
How is this fact not "the most recognized in human history and knowledge"???

"You keep saying that there is no historical evidence for Jesus but are unable to explain why
the people who have devoted their entire lives to
the study of ancient history (university professors thereof)mostly believe that Jesus was
indeed historical"

They only believe it because they want to, they would not treat any other figure so. The evidence is just NOT there!

Of course this is the basic problem, some people will believe anything just because they WANT to.
Christians ridicule other religions without seeing the irony of the fact that the arguments they use apply equally well to their own religion.
They claim to know the truth because THEIR book says so, so if any other book says something different, it MUST be false.

To the skeptics here, please take heart, you will never get people like Van and Leonarde to see the truth, they are well past that, and the Judas argument is a good example, if they do not see the contradictions here, they will not see them anywhere. BUT, Not all the 1 billion Christians are so blinded, most have just never heard the other side, if you keep this information out in the open, many people will get a chance to think about it, and come to a rational conclusion!

Baidarka · 10-15-2002, 03:52 PM

Butters
You said
B - “To the skeptics here, please take heart, you will never get people like Van and Leonarde to see the truth, they are well past that, and the Judas argument is a good example, if they do not see the contradictions here, they will not see them anywhere. BUT, Not all the 1 billion Christians are so blinded, most have just never heard the other side, if you keep this information out in the open, many people will get a chance to think about it, and come to a rational conclusion!”

I must differ with your lumping Leonarde in with Vanderzyden. First of all Leonarde did concede some points on the Judas issue.
Vanderzyden is a pompous blowhard who doesn’t seem to bother reading our posts. I really don’t feel that there is anyone there.
Leonarde on the other hand argues hard for his side but he actually reads our arguments and responds to them. I am sometimes disappointed by what I have seen as his willingness to use illogical arguments but I think that we have been pushing him hard with some pretty difficult stuff. As I have already observed he is occasionally willing to concede a point. I think that the point of these discussions is to challenge each others ideas but not to dismiss each other. My main argument with Vanderzyden is not his Fundamentalism but his pomposity. I feel like I am wasting my time responding to him, but I think that Leonarde is interesting and interested.

Ion · 10-15-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:

...
And why??
Because they don't agree with you about the
historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth. It's hard
to take you seriously after that.

Cheers!

Obviously, it's not about agreeing with me on the historical reality of one 'Jesus of Nazareth'. One 'Jesus of Nazareth' might have existed, like many John might have existed. Who cares?

Obviously, it's about agreeing with historically established facts on one 'Jesus of Nazareth':
show me the non-religious historical text establishing scientifically that one 'Jesus of Nazareth' performed miracles, died and resurrected 2,000 years ago;
with scientific proofs of these 'Jesus' phenomenal feats, comparable to say the feats -small, relative to Jesus' ones- historically established and attributed to Iulius Caesar.

Cheers!

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Ion · 10-15-2002, 05:53 PM

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Butters · 10-15-2002, 06:42 PM

O.K. Biadarka, I take your point. At least Leonarde seems sincere and does have the guts to really discuss the issues. But as far as lumping them together, I mean only in the sense that they both start from the position that the Bible IS accurate, and will try to make the facts confirm this instead of asking IS the Bible accurate? and examining the facts as they present themselves.

Family Man · 10-15-2002, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


As is becoming typical here, you indicate that I "can't answer" but you don't say what specifically.

Let me tell you, I DO WANT to see the contradictions. Show me. I'm ready. I can take it. Please demonstrate just one contradiction, and I will admit it readily.

Vanderzyden

You have seen a contradiction. Your answer is that that you can reconcile it if you make up a whole bunch of stuff not only not in evidence, but patently absurd as an explanation. Your conclusions are ridiculous. When this is pointed out to you, you ignore it. I've seen this with Judas. I've seen it with Jesus's genealogies, where the contradiction is "resolved" by proclaiming the genealogies as Mary's, even though a plain reading of the text indicates that it is Joseph's (i.e. there isn't any reason to believe it is Mary's.)

The point is, in any other context, if contradictory accounts were reconciled in the manner that you propose here no one would take you or your explanation seriously. As another poster has noted (and you ignored) any contradiction can be reconciled if we're allowed to make things up.

Given your inability to address the points that have been raised against your methodology, I'm not surprised you find no contradictions. And you shouldn't be surprised that the majority here find your arguments, and your proclaimed lack of contradictions, extremely unconvincing.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]

Family Man · 10-15-2002, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baidarka:
Family Man:
Don’t rise to Vanderzyden’s bait. He’s a fake, phony, fraud. He is incapable of a coherent argument so he ignores our arguments and unilaterally declares himself the winner. He’s a hit and run debater. He’s also not really a Christian as can be clearly seen from his atrocious unchristian behavior. Or should we redefine Christian behavior based on Vanerzyden's example?

Oh, I agree with you 100% percent. If I discuss anything with Vanderzyden, it will be the rather bogus method he uses to convince himself there are no contradictions. He hasn't resolved a single thing except in his own mind.

Family Man · 10-15-2002, 07:10 PM

To answer the straw poll, the stories of Judas' death is clearly contradictory, and only a fool would believe otherwise.

leonarde · 10-15-2002, 07:40 PM

Posted by Ion:

Quote:

Obviously, it's not about agreeing with me on the historical reality of one 'Jesus of Nazareth'. One 'Jesus of Nazareth' might have existed, like many John might have existed. Who cares?

Wait a moment!! Aren't you the same Ion who on
page after page claimed that the Bible is just
chalkful of non-historical persons???? And was
not one of the persons you listed Jesus???
Did we not exchange posts on just those questions
as to whether some/many/all of them (the persons) arehistorical???? Weren't many of the 'contradictions' cited about Judas and others who
aren't mentioned outside the Bible???

Now, when I challenge you to explain why most historians do indeed believe that Jesus was historical, you change your tune and say "Who
cares?"

Well, if you don't care about the historicity of
the most important person in the Bible, it is
difficult to understand why you want to participate in a forum called "Biblical Criticism
& Archaeology".

Cheers!

10-15-2002, 05:53 PM	#195
Ion Banned Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,817	[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-15-2002, 02:43 PM	#192
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	Well, since I see Van did not answer my post, I will assume that he is unable to refute it, and consider that matter closed. I would like to take issue with a couple of statements made by Leonarde "Well currently there are about 1 billion people (out of 6 billion or so total) who adhere to the belief that Jesus was a real personage." Appeal to numbers is a false argument. How many people believed in Isis, Zeus, etc.? How many people believe in Buddah? How many people believed the Earth was flat? How many people believed the Sun revolved around the Earth (supported by the Christian church)? How many people believe in UFOs? How many people believe we only use 10% of our brains? Believing something just because you have been told its true, does not make it true, no matter how many people are sucked in! "Most of those 1 billion people understand that Jesus was simultaneously divine." No, most of those people BELEIVE he was divine "In addition a few hundred million Muslims believe that Jesus existed too (though they think he was merely a prophet not divine)." Of course those same Muslims believe that Muhomad recieved the word of God from an angel, should we also believe that? Since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, will it be true when they outnumber Christians? And lets not forget that some 4 billion people in the world think they are both myths How is this fact not "the most recognized in human history and knowledge"??? "You keep saying that there is no historical evidence for Jesus but are unable to explain why the people who have devoted their entire lives to the study of ancient history (university professors thereof)mostly believe that Jesus was indeed historical" They only believe it because they want to, they would not treat any other figure so. The evidence is just NOT there! Of course this is the basic problem, some people will believe anything just because they WANT to. Christians ridicule other religions without seeing the irony of the fact that the arguments they use apply equally well to their own religion. They claim to know the truth because THEIR book says so, so if any other book says something different, it MUST be false. To the skeptics here, please take heart, you will never get people like Van and Leonarde to see the truth, they are well past that, and the Judas argument is a good example, if they do not see the contradictions here, they will not see them anywhere. BUT, Not all the 1 billion Christians are so blinded, most have just never heard the other side, if you keep this information out in the open, many people will get a chance to think about it, and come to a rational conclusion!

10-15-2002, 03:52 PM	#193
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Butters You said B - “To the skeptics here, please take heart, you will never get people like Van and Leonarde to see the truth, they are well past that, and the Judas argument is a good example, if they do not see the contradictions here, they will not see them anywhere. BUT, Not all the 1 billion Christians are so blinded, most have just never heard the other side, if you keep this information out in the open, many people will get a chance to think about it, and come to a rational conclusion!” I must differ with your lumping Leonarde in with Vanderzyden. First of all Leonarde did concede some points on the Judas issue. Vanderzyden is a pompous blowhard who doesn’t seem to bother reading our posts. I really don’t feel that there is anyone there. Leonarde on the other hand argues hard for his side but he actually reads our arguments and responds to them. I am sometimes disappointed by what I have seen as his willingness to use illogical arguments but I think that we have been pushing him hard with some pretty difficult stuff. As I have already observed he is occasionally willing to concede a point. I think that the point of these discussions is to challenge each others ideas but not to dismiss each other. My main argument with Vanderzyden is not his Fundamentalism but his pomposity. I feel like I am wasting my time responding to him, but I think that Leonarde is interesting and interested.

10-15-2002, 06:42 PM	#196
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	O.K. Biadarka, I take your point. At least Leonarde seems sincere and does have the guts to really discuss the issues. But as far as lumping them together, I mean only in the sense that they both start from the position that the Bible IS accurate, and will try to make the facts confirm this instead of asking IS the Bible accurate? and examining the facts as they present themselves.

10-15-2002, 07:10 PM	#199
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	To answer the straw poll, the stories of Judas' death is clearly contradictory, and only a fool would believe otherwise.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.