Harumi

Well, at least nature has a tendency to not talk back, and if an earthquake comes up, it doesn't do so with the idea that it specifically wants to hurt you. So maybe it's safer.

It's the same reason why certain people like animals better than people. "They don't talk back."

emotional

Folks,

You may be getting the idea I'm anti-humanity. Well, I want to emphatically clarify that I'm not. I'm not anti-humanity. It's just that I'm not a humanist, because humanism doesn't, er, "do it for me". Human achievements are fine, they're great, but they don't raise religious-type awe in me, because I know how they were made. Natural creations, on the other hand, are for me a work of wonder, because I simply wonder at how the mindless, unplanning hand of Nature made them. It's all about mystery. Humanity is great, but there's nothing mysterious about humanity. Nature is full of mystery -- and mystery is a necessary ingredient for religious feeling.

I respect humanism, and I think humanism is the best social, moral and political basis for humanity to live by. But my feelings lie elsewhere.

Harumi

And it doesn't help that the few "mysteries" surrounding humanity are all made up by the humans themselves in the first place, hmm?

emotional

What are you talking about?

Take computers, for example. A layman might say they're mysterious. Well perhaps, but not in the sense I'm referring to. We know humans built those machines. We know humans have the capability of building those machines. Nothing mysterious here.

In contrast, it would be intuitive to think that mindless nature cannot craft plants and animals. How it did so is mysterious to the extreme.

Superman lifting a building is nothing mysterious, for we know he has the capability. An ordinary human lifting a building (without using tools) would be mysterious. God creating things is nothing mysterious. Humans creating things is nothing mysterious. Mindless nature creating things is mysterious.

Harumi

I was mainly thinking of the cultish and super-religious fundy people who like to talk about the mysteries of *God*, but your point is well taken.

Marlowe

I want to thank everyone in this thread - this is a discussion that's fun and informative and that actually seems to be moving toward greater understanding of each other's viewpoints, rather than trying to shout each other down. Please know that I am joining the conversation in that spirit.

I'm a worshipper of nature as well - and a long-time pantheist, and it's all about mystery for me too. But since I study a lot of science - quantum physics, chaos and complexity theory - well, nature starts to look much less "mindless", in fact its mind seems far huger than a human mind, which actually increases my reverence for it. As for humans not being mysterious - you don't find thousands of people building the pyramids in the middle of a desert during a period of human history when folks were struggling for survival mysterious? You don't find Beethoven's symphonies mysterious, or the moon landing, or Ankor Wat, or Einstein coming up with Relativity mysterious? You really may not, but I'd be curious as to why. I tend to see humanity as much a part of Nature as the stars and the trees and therefore as deserving of awe.

happyboy - I'm confused by your words throughout most of the thread about religion. Pantheism is a religion, just not an organized one. I mean the WPM page says:

"But almost all of what we say applies to all the spiritual orientations that find shelter in the WPM. They go under the names of scientific pantheism, religious humanism, religious naturalism, religious atheism, deep ecology, nature-worship. They also include philosophical Taoism, modern Stoicism, Gaian religion, as well as to those forms of wicca and paganism that see magic and the gods as symbols rather than realities, also Western forms of Buddhism that celebrate nature and everyday life, and to those in Unitarian Universalism who do not believe in supernatural beings."

I'm having trouble deciphering whether you dislike organized religion, or religious feelings in general (more often called "spirituality"). But as the above points out, pantheism is essentially the same as several other religious/ philosophical branches. The concept of pantheism was defined by the (heretical) Jewish philosopher Spinoza and is usually summed up as "The belief that everything is made of the same substance and that substance is divine." So, pantheism explicitly contains the concept of divinity - just not a personalized or personified or supernatural divinity. I've seen it as a way of infusing the sacredness I've always felt for existence into the entire universe. Like emotional, I do this because I want to - it makes life more fun, and lights up everything, much as is stated below -

From the WPM belief statement, point 1:

"[The Universe's] overwhelming power, beauty and fundamental mystery compel the deepest human reverence and wonder. "

which is why I've been a pantheist, lo these many years.

Nowhere357 - I've really appreciated your posts regarding rationality versus intuition and the necessity of both. That is a very strong belief of mine.

Harumi

Marlowe, great post!

I find myself agreeing with you, especially when it comes to some of what humans have been able to achieve. After all, major things, such as human history has a lot of mysteries behind it that I've always found fascinating. In the current times, I often forget about the wonderful things we've been able to do.

It's always made me wonder why we humans have to feel like we're so separate from everything else. We're not. We're a part of it. There's no special destiny for us. There's nothing out there waiting to receive us and give us a pat on the back. Humans are not evil per se. Neither are we good. It's our definition and our creation. We're insignificant, and yet at the same time we each carry our own heavy burden just by being human. Such a paradox has always made me wonder just exactly what is it that caused us to become the way we are.

And isn't that a mystery in and of itself?

Nowhere357

Thank you, Marlowe. It feels good to have your acknowledgement. :notworthy

I agree. In my basic understanding of reality, it seems clear that life exists, and the boundary between 'life' and 'not-life' is very wide and very grey.

Also, I like the idea that each person is made of billions of individual living cells; while things like colonies (ants, bees) can be studied as if they are single entities. Hmmm.

If my bodies' cells could talk to each other, maybe the skeptical ones would say "We are all that is. We do what we do 'cuz of chemicals and stuff. There is no god called "Nowhere"."
Meanwhile, the religious cells are saying:"Nowhere is Now Here. He does exist! Dammit, it's not just chemicals!".

Hehe. The fanatic ones would say "I will kill stuff for Now Here". I better stop.

Nowhere357

I agree. Physically, we're made of matter which is constantly changing, which almost literally came from the dirt and returns to the dirt. Why should our subjective mental 'self' be any different?

We are a long way from proving that the existence of life and 'mind' is fully explained by the known physical forces. IMO there MAY BE a 'life force'.

Miss Piggy

I agree. IMHO, the religious explanations with all those anthropomorphic gods etc., are banal. Even as a little child I became convinced that the universe is powerful enough to take care of itself, there is no need for any cosmic puppetmaster.