NOGO

You have not in any way answered my point.
You are just repeating your position.
Simply repeating your position does not a debate make.

I will again point out to you what you need to answer in order to counter my point.
If you don't want to debate that is fine as well.

"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "
You agree that by "all these things" Jesus is talking about all the things that he mentioned in his answer to the multiple questions asked by his disciples?

"when you see all these things"
This means that the disciples will see all the things that he mentioned in his answer.
Do you agree?

"this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"
"This generation" means at worst that the child who was born the day of that conversation has to die for the generation to pass.

So all the things that Jesus said, which includes his return, will take place BEFORE the generation passes.

This gives a pretty good time frame for his prophecy.

After that Jesus says that he does not know the EXACT day nor the EXACT hour. The reason the word "day" and the word "hour" are used here instead of just saying "I don't know when I will return" is that Jesus already gave a time frame for his return ie within the generation. He is thus simply stating that he does not know PRECISELY the day and hour.

Now Aza,
I have given you a plausible explanation which makes sense of both verse 34 and 36 together.
You on the other hand made no attempt to explain verse 34. You just repeat that verse 36 says what you want and that is all.

If you want to debate you must explain verse 34.
Otherwise, you can both move on.

NOGO

Very nice of you to correct me but rather useless since you do not explain how this correction counters my point.
"End of what?"
You tell me.

The time for what if not Jesus' return.
Jesus' return is at hand.
My point stands.

aza wood

If i where to guess, then i would be doing what you are.


The revelations tells us of countless things that were then(around 65 C.E.) about to take place, that would climax in "Jesus's" return. The bible also teaches that time is relative. It teaches that, spiritual beings live outside of time (as we know it). What is "Soon", if 1000 years is but a yesterday, after it is past, or 4hrs.( Ps.90:4)

Maybe you think that you live in a world where just saying it, will make it so. Maybe you do. (the secular web)

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

NOGO

I am not declaring myself victorious here, Aza.
What I mean is that you have not countered my point in any way and since I don`t want to repeat it and bore everybody in the process I simply say that it stands. It stands because you have not knocked it down but you can still try.

All this is fine but you have not answered my previous post.

When Mt24 says that "this generation will not pass before all these things take place" we do not have flex time here as you claim above.

1000 years may be a yesterday but "this generation" is a relatively well defined time interval.

Let's assume for arguement sake that "this generation" equal "2000+ years" but really it doesn't.

...back to Mt24
"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "

you = disciples who asked the questions
He = Jesus
"all these things" = everything Jesus mentioned in his answer
"this generation" = "2000+ years"

Since the disciples died within the generation in question then they could not possibly "see all these things" ... if ... as you say ... all these things are to happen over a 2000+ year period.

The sentence that you have to fix, Aza, cannot be fixed with a single word substitution.
The first part of the sentence says that the disciples would see "all these things" and that THEY would recognize that Jesus (He) is near.
The sencond part of the sentence says the same thing with different words.

"when you see all these things" and
"this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"
is really saying the same thing.
It is certainly talking about the same time interval.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

aza wood

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NOGO:
[QB]
I am not declaring myself victorious here, Aza.
What I mean is that you have not countered my point in any way and since I don`t want to repeat it and bore everybody in the process I simply say that it stands. It stands because you have not knocked it down but you can still try.

If a point is completely misquoted and wrong why bother countering it? Wouldn't it be much more persuasive to just show the misquoted verse. Twice i have showed misquoted verses.

All this is fine but you have not answered my previous post.

Thank you. This answer was "fine". It's nice to be noticed.

When Mt24 says that "this generation will not pass before all these things take place" we do not have flex time here as you claim above.

You are correct. The flex time is only meant to refute to the misquoted verses in Rev.(last post) I never applied it to Mat.24, and it is not needed there. In mat. 24 "Jesus" never gives any time frame for his physical return to Earth. He said he did not know when that would happen. (2 posts back)

1000 years may be a yesterday but "this generation" is a relatively well defined time interval.

Let's assume for arguement sake that "this generation" equal "2000+ years" but really it doesn't.

This generation could not mean 2000 years.


...back to Mt24
"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that(((IT)))is near, [even] at the doors. Mat. 24:23 "It" could refer to the destruction, that he was asked about, but can not refer to his coming, as He states in verses 36,(and more below) that he did not know the time of his return.


you = disciples who asked the questions
He = Jesus
"all these things" = everything Jesus mentioned in his answer
"this generation" = "2000+ years"

Are you confusing my answer to the misquoted verses in Rev. with matt.24?

Since the disciples died within the generation in question then they could not possibly "see all these things" ... if ... as you say ... all these things are to happen over a 2000+ year period.

Have you missed a few verses in mat.24?
ie.

• ALL these things, (Wars, Famines, Pestilences, and earthquakes) are only the beginning of Horrors.(8)
  
  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.(6)
  
  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated OF ALL NATIONS for my name's sake. (9)
  
  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.(14)
  
  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (42)
  
  You also must be ready all the time. For the Son of Man will come when least expected.(44)
  
  But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (48)
  
  The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, (50)
  
  

All these verses, show that "jesus" taught that no one was to hnow when he would reture.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

aza wood

The one word is "IT". The verse reads (in many trans.)not "HE", BUT "IT". Here is your verse quoted correctly.
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that(((IT)))is near, [even] at the doorS.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

enemigo

aza.. Are you purposely obfuscating the issue by not dealing with NOGO's main point?

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Please tell me what this quote means. Please define "generation" and "all these things." It seems, to me, that you are just trying to make an issue where there is not one. Nobody is arguing that Jesus knew the exact day and time. The above quote does not give the exact day and hour, but it does outline a definite time limit for these events to happen. That time limit is long past, therefore Jesus was a false prophet. This was NOGO's main point, and it is the point which you have spent the least amount of time addressing.

richard

NOGO

Several bibles translate the word as "it" others as "He".

NASB
33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

American standard version
33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.

Amplified Bible
33So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.

NIV
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it(4) is near, right at the door

(4) 24:33 Or he

As you can see several Bibles translate the word in question as "He". The New International Version (NIV) has a footnote to indicate that "He" is also correct.

Perhaps you know more than the many scholars to produced the above bible translations
OR
perhaps you assume that only the verion that you read is the correct one.

Logically one has to entertain the possibility that either both are correct or that nobody really knows for sure. So your comment about the correctness of your bible version is unwarranted.

Also since my arguement does not change in the least either way then your point is not an issue.


Contrast the statement that you made above with your point about "it/He".


Basically (and in both cases) you are digressing.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

NOGO

"It" cannot be the destruction as you claim because the destruction is part of the "things" that they will see which will tell them that Jesus (or the Kingdom of Heaven) is at the door.

Look again at Matthew 24 (NIV)
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it/He is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Notice verse 32.
When you see that the fig tree's twigs get tender and its leaves come out then you know that the summer is near.
Jesus is making an analogy.
The twigs and leaves are the signs and the summer is what the disciples are waiting for.

verse 33 "even so"
Or "likewise"

verse 33 continued, "... when you see all these things, ..."
These are the signs

verse 33 continued, "you know that it/He is near, right at the door."
It or He or anything that may be there in the original language is the "summer". It is what the disciples are waiting for. What is that?

Can it be the destruction as you claim? Is that what the disciples are waiting for and which corresponds to the "summer" in Jesus' analogy of the fig tree.

It has to be his second coming. That is the "summer" that they are waiting for.

Your conclusion is incorrect. All of these verses are in no way incompatible with "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." as a time-frame for Jesus' return.

verse 36 says this and only this
NIV "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

This does not mean that Jesus had no idea of when he would return. Verse 36 only says that the day and hour is unknown. Together "day" and "hour" indicate that what is not known is the precise time.

Here is another passage which proves it.

Matthew 10:5-7
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

Matthew 10:23
I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Two things are to be noted here.

1. "The kingdom of heaven is near".
Just imagine people in the first century hearing such a message. What would they think if "near" meant 2000 years later.

2. They will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
That sounds like about the same as this generation.

Here again Jesus gives clear indication of when He would return "before they finish going through the cities" and again not the exact "day" and "time".

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

aza wood

Originally posted by enemigo:aza.. Are you purposely obfuscating the issue by not dealing with NOGO's main point?

Which misquoted verse was the main point?


Please tell me what this quote means.

I am not the one who is saying that i know what this quote means. NOGO is. I can only take it at face value. Here "jesus" seems to answer the disciple's question, "Tell us, when will the destruction of the temple take place. Please note that this is the only part of their question that is requiring a time. The part that refers to "Jesus's" return does not ask about when(The time), but about what, in reference to some kind of sign.

Please define "generation" and "all these things."

this generation, as used in mat. 24:34 - the disciple's lifetime.
"All these things"-everything that "Jesus" had predicted in the chapter(prior to saying all these things)But minus what he excludes in verse 36 by, adding the qualifying statement, "But I can not include my return in this because i do not know when that will be.

It seems, to me, that you are just trying to make an issue where there is not one.

I am trying to show you that there is an issue, where you do not see one.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>