Freethought & Rationalism Archive

marylandnaturegirl · 08-03-2002, 08:14 PM

You know what the good thing about the March will be??

It will be full of a lot of PRO-ACTIVE people because all the Nay-Sayers and Pessimists that we keep hearing from on these boards will be HOME surfing the net and wondering why they don't meet many fellow atheists. LOL.

All of us that have the motivation to get off our duffs and try to make the world a better place or have enough energy and imagination and inspiration to go and hang out with a bunch of realists will be AT THE MARCH. Yipee!

So lets not feed the pessimism of the nay-sayers. Lets go and put our energy in to organizing some post RALLY events for those that are going to be in town for the WHOLE weekend.

OK? Lets think of ways to make the March great...not wonder if it will fail.

As FDR said "All we have to fear is fear itself!".

David Bowden · 08-03-2002, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starspun:
 But the question remains: why November? By design or by choice?

November 2 is just a couple of days before the mid-term election, as d'Naturalist has pointed out.

I also wonder: into whose hands will it play if any ruckus is raised/ "staged"/ highlighted in the media?

It's already been pointed out on another thread that some Satanists plan to join in the march, and any clowning will probably attract the cameras...

While I totally support the idea of a peaceful demonstration (wish I could go!) and perhaps an eventual Washington lobbying organization, I'm wondering if the timing on this won't just serve to motivate a lot more conservative reactionaries to go out and vote for the bandwagon patriot of their choice...

...although in the long run I still think we do need to present a good face, and be known as American citizens who vote and don't like candidates who kowtow to religious interests. The proximity with Election Day, after all the hoopla surrounding the Pledge issue, just kinda bugs me. Not that there's anything we can do about it now.

-Wanderer

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]

ashibaka · 08-03-2002, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:
Thanks for the added info. I agree with you completely. That is why the "Godless" title bugs me. This march will be a true success by being inclusive. The issue at stake is a big one. "Who is an American?" United "we" stand! Divided "we" fall!

C'mon, this is American Atheists we're talking about. I, for one, wouldn't expect them to include the Deists and open-minded Christians. Get the Universalists to host a March on Washington, then you're talking.

Buffman · 08-03-2002, 11:59 PM

ashibaka

C'mon, this is American Atheists we're talking about. I, for one, wouldn't expect them to include the Deists and open-minded Christians. Get the Universalists to host a March on Washington, then you're talking.

Exactly! That takes me right back to my opening query. "What are the principles and goals behind this march?" If it is to lobby our politicians and countrymen and women into supporting our Constitution and the continued separation of church and state, I'm all for it. However, if it is simply to demonstrate that there are atheists (Godless people) in America, whose Americanism and Patriotism have already been questioned by the Bush Presidents, many politicians and members of the media, then I do not think that it is the most productive "PRO-ACTIVE" approach to the underlying problems with which the non-theist is faced in this country.

I agree with you. It should be all the other Christians and non-Christian believers marching together for a continuation of everyone's secular liberties. It wasn't just blacks or gays who marched to protest injustices by the majority faith believers.

If certain Christian cultists need the government's authority and power to support their interpretation of "their" supernatural Christian God, what does that say about "their" God? For all practical and rational purposes, it runs directly in opposition to their faith belief claims about "Him." (He's a wimp if he needs government support/edicts in Pledges, in mottos, on money and declared national days of prayer.)

Make no mistake about it! It was the enlightened Christian secularists that ratified the Constitution and Bill of Rights...not a handful of Deists, atheists, non-believers or non-Christians. However, today, in a more religious and non-religious pluralistic society/culture, the enlightened, secularist, Christians and religious non-christians have remained painfully silent on the sidelines as these overly zealous Christian cultists tear at the very fabric of what allowed America to become the leader in the freedom to express one's individual conscience without governmental retribution, intimidation... or taxation(Vouchers). No where are religions as dynamic and as free as they are here with an elected government that remains neutral concerning faith beliefs and non-beliefs. It is a delicate balancing act that had worked successfully until these cultists began their organized propaganda campaign and captured the seat of the federal government as well as many powerful positions in the states and local communities. So powerful that they have been able to intimidate, or re-educate, every Senator and all but three members of the House.

Butters · 08-05-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken:
Hi,

There seems to be almost unanimous agreement that this march on Washington is a good idea.

I am, however, suspicious of this march.

Its put on by AA which generally is general known for being closed. Although they are inviting everyone that is a nonbeliever of any stripe, it doesn't appear as if they are inviting them to participate in the demonstration except to pad the crowd.

I have always seen that we nonbelievers are trying to solve our problem backwards. We need to worry more about our neighbors than our congressmen. Fighting church-state separation cases are not unimportant. However, it seems that also not fighting to make the public understand that atheists are socially redeeming equals is like fighting the symptoms instead of the disease.

If the march is nothing but "religion sucks" and "lets file a court case" then you can bet the worst vitriol of those spoken moments are what will make the nightly news.

Any PR is not good PR as the pledge case has well shown us. Take this example from a voice that actually wants to be sympathetic.<a href="http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multipage/documents/02219639.htm" target="_blank">From the Boston Phoenix</a>

If the author is quoting the AA representatives accurately I can tell you that I don't want or need to be represented by them.

DC

While I don't agree with much of the AA's opinions and attitudes, I'm curious as to what you object to in the article you linked to?

MOJO-JOJO · 08-06-2002, 10:13 AM

I think the really sad thing though, is that many who will be watching this event, especially those in the media who will be covering it (many of whom are closet agnostics and atheists themselves), will be secretly cheering on the godless march, but won't say anything out loud when others start attacking the march as a parade of left-wing wackos who are just commies, pagans and satanists, all of whom should just "GET OUT of this country if they don't like god!"

CaptainDave · 08-06-2002, 10:54 AM

It depends on how many people show up for the march. If we got a decent number of us there, it might give courage to those who would not otherwise speak up.

Rusting Car Bumper · 08-09-2002, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by forscher1:

While I don't agree with much of the AA's opinions and attitudes, I'm curious as to what you object to in the article you linked to?

I thought is was fairly obvious.

You have an admitted UU'er writing the article. You'd expect him to be sympathetic. Instead his impressions, are that the AA convention is "amusing."

Notice what people tell him: Its not. "We are atheists and we stand up for these values because of our humanist related values."

Instead they say, "There are so many religious images that are really ugly," Rice told me. As an example, she cited the crucifix. "It’s a picture of a guy being tortured to death," she said. "Do you really want your kids looking at that? It’s an ugly, ugly vision."

or

Rice’s friend Mark Thomas, a software engineer also from Silicon Valley, called religion a form of "mind control".

or

"a veritable laugh riot of bumper stickers (WWJD — WHO WANTS JELLY DONUTS?),"

or

about Ellen Johnson: "She saw Madalyn O’Hair on television for the first time in 1979 and experienced a moment of self-recognition: 'Oh, that’s what we are: she’s just like us.' "

or

"Sometimes I shake my head," Ellen Johnson said during her keynote address. "I am actually the president of an organization that lobbies on behalf of reality."

What's the message here? It's not that atheism is good and produces good human values. Its, "Religion sucks. Your symbols are evil. You are stupid and brain washed. We will make fun of you. We have the inside track on reality and you don't. We want to be just like M. O'Hair! Further, we atheists can't do anything except define ourselves in terms of what we hate about you."

That's a great message. (sarcasm intended)

DC

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]

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08-03-2002, 08:14 PM	#21
marylandnaturegirl Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Metro Area Posts: 151	You know what the good thing about the March will be?? It will be full of a lot of PRO-ACTIVE people because all the Nay-Sayers and Pessimists that we keep hearing from on these boards will be HOME surfing the net and wondering why they don't meet many fellow atheists. LOL. All of us that have the motivation to get off our duffs and try to make the world a better place or have enough energy and imagination and inspiration to go and hang out with a bunch of realists will be AT THE MARCH. Yipee! So lets not feed the pessimism of the nay-sayers. Lets go and put our energy in to organizing some post RALLY events for those that are going to be in town for the WHOLE weekend. OK? Lets think of ways to make the March great...not wonder if it will fail. As FDR said "All we have to fear is fear itself!".

08-03-2002, 11:59 PM	#24
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	ashibaka C'mon, this is American Atheists we're talking about. I, for one, wouldn't expect them to include the Deists and open-minded Christians. Get the Universalists to host a March on Washington, then you're talking. Exactly! That takes me right back to my opening query. "What are the principles and goals behind this march?" If it is to lobby our politicians and countrymen and women into supporting our Constitution and the continued separation of church and state, I'm all for it. However, if it is simply to demonstrate that there are atheists (Godless people) in America, whose Americanism and Patriotism have already been questioned by the Bush Presidents, many politicians and members of the media, then I do not think that it is the most productive "PRO-ACTIVE" approach to the underlying problems with which the non-theist is faced in this country. I agree with you. It should be all the other Christians and non-Christian believers marching together for a continuation of everyone's secular liberties. It wasn't just blacks or gays who marched to protest injustices by the majority faith believers. If certain Christian cultists need the government's authority and power to support their interpretation of "their" supernatural Christian God, what does that say about "their" God? For all practical and rational purposes, it runs directly in opposition to their faith belief claims about "Him." (He's a wimp if he needs government support/edicts in Pledges, in mottos, on money and declared national days of prayer.) Make no mistake about it! It was the enlightened Christian secularists that ratified the Constitution and Bill of Rights...not a handful of Deists, atheists, non-believers or non-Christians. However, today, in a more religious and non-religious pluralistic society/culture, the enlightened, secularist, Christians and religious non-christians have remained painfully silent on the sidelines as these overly zealous Christian cultists tear at the very fabric of what allowed America to become the leader in the freedom to express one's individual conscience without governmental retribution, intimidation... or taxation(Vouchers). No where are religions as dynamic and as free as they are here with an elected government that remains neutral concerning faith beliefs and non-beliefs. It is a delicate balancing act that had worked successfully until these cultists began their organized propaganda campaign and captured the seat of the federal government as well as many powerful positions in the states and local communities. So powerful that they have been able to intimidate, or re-educate, every Senator and all but three members of the House.

08-06-2002, 10:13 AM	#26
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	I think the really sad thing though, is that many who will be watching this event, especially those in the media who will be covering it (many of whom are closet agnostics and atheists themselves), will be secretly cheering on the godless march, but won't say anything out loud when others start attacking the march as a parade of left-wing wackos who are just commies, pagans and satanists, all of whom should just "GET OUT of this country if they don't like god!"

08-06-2002, 10:54 AM	#27
CaptainDave Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 119	It depends on how many people show up for the march. If we got a decent number of us there, it might give courage to those who would not otherwise speak up.

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