Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 12-12-2002, 10:57 AM

Amie said:
Have you ever believed in anything without evidence of it?

Biff replied:
Like most people I did until I was three or four years old. By that time I realized that the world did not revolve around me and that things were not so simply because I wanted them to be so.

I have a slight bone to pick with this. It has to do with what one classifies as "evidence." For example, for Santa Claus, you were presented with evidence, if one considers the word of one's parents, pictures, movies, the jolly fellow in the red suit in the mall who asked you what you wanted for christmas, etc. as evidence. But when you got older, either you figured out on your own (like my son did) that presents come from mom and dad and not from Saint Nick, or someone told you that it was fantasy once you were old enough to distinguish fantasy from reality.

Amie said:
I do understand what you are saying here however one does not require evidence to justify a personal belief to oneself

With this broad definition of evidence, I would say that no one has ever believed anything without "evidence" of some kind. What's important is one's ability to examine the evidence which is presented to you and determine whether the evidence is substantial enough to warrant "belief."

Obviously some people have a much lower standard for substantiality than others. These people may hear of or witness a "miraculous" event and believe it is of supernatural origin without really questioning the evidence they have and seeking alternative explanations. These are the types of people who will say things like "I missed my plane and it crashed. It was a miracle! God was watching out for me!"

These people often can't understand why skeptics like us won't believe things "without evidence," when in reality, we (hopefully) critically examine the evidence presented to us and make our belief decision based on the examination. If we find the evidence to not be substantial, we don't believe.

The great Edward Abbey once wrote, "The supernatural is a failure of the human imagination and an insult to the majesty of the real."

Another Edward Abbey fan? He's one of my heroes! Desert Solitaire is a must read IMO.

Biff the unclean · 12-12-2002, 11:58 AM

Desert Solitaire is a must read IMO.
Right you are!
The supernatural quote comes from Confessions of a Barbarian

tronvillain · 12-12-2002, 12:16 PM

Polar Bear:

Quote:

Atheists: What sort of phenomenon would you have to experience firsthand in order to be convinced that it was (1) a miracle and (2) an act of the Christian God of the Bible?

Well, I might label anything incredible, improbable, or seeingly impossible as a "miracle" but the word itself would have religious significance to me. For a "miracle" to be good evidence for the existence of "the Christian God of the Bible" it would have to be an extremely involved miracle. It wouldn't be too difficult to convince me it was due to a godlike entity of some sort though.

Mageth · 12-12-2002, 01:04 PM

The supernatural quote comes from Confessions of a Barbarian

That's one of his books I haven't read, though I've read excerpts. I'll have to pick it up.

Biff the unclean · 12-12-2002, 01:06 PM

See many of those "godlike entities'" hanging around the place, do you?

tronvillain · 12-12-2002, 01:31 PM

No, you don't. What's your point?

Amie · 12-12-2002, 01:36 PM

Quote:

I'm convinced that as long as there are people that gullible and closed minded out there, a skeptic can only conclude that You...just...can't...win.

Are you suggesting that people who believe in miracles are close minded? or people who believe in psychics are close minded? or people who are convinced that psychics have real powers and see no other alternative are close minded?

and I did not realize it was about "winning"

galiel · 12-12-2002, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Atheists: What sort of phenomenon would you have to experience firsthand in order to be convinced that it was (1) a miracle and (2) an act of the Christian God of the Bible?

Theists: What sort of phenomenon would you have to experience firsthand in order to be convinced that it was (1) NOT a miracle and (2) NOT an act of the Christian God of the Bible?

Please respond, if you can, and then take it one step further:

What sort of evidence/argument/phenomenon would you have to be presented with/hear/experience in order to be convinced that (1) there ARE no miracles and (2) There IS no Christian God of the Bible?

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]

galiel · 12-12-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

Are you suggesting that people who believe in miracles are close minded?

Yes.

Quote:

or people who believe in psychics are close minded?

Yes.

Quote:

or people who are convinced that psychics have real powers and see no other alternative are close minded?

Yes.
All of the above, yes by definition.

Quote:

and I did not realize it was about "winning"

That was, as you clearly know, a figure of speech expressing the futility of trying to reason with those who do not accept the primacy of reason.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]

Biff the unclean · 12-12-2002, 02:36 PM

tronvillain my point is that if no one has ever seen a god or a godlike entity, and you saw a miracle why would you conclude that it came from something that you don't know exists? Seeing a miracle would only suggest that a miracle happened unless the miracle included the "godlike" entity.

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12-12-2002, 10:57 AM	#111
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Amie said: Have you ever believed in anything without evidence of it? Biff replied: *Like most people I did until I was three or four years old. By that time I realized that the world did not revolve around me and that things were not so simply because I wanted them to be so.* I have a slight bone to pick with this. It has to do with what one classifies as "evidence." For example, for Santa Claus, you were presented with evidence, if one considers the word of one's parents, pictures, movies, the jolly fellow in the red suit in the mall who asked you what you wanted for christmas, etc. as evidence. But when you got older, either you figured out on your own (like my son did) that presents come from mom and dad and not from Saint Nick, or someone told you that it was fantasy once you were old enough to distinguish fantasy from reality. Amie said: I do understand what you are saying here however one does not require evidence to justify a personal belief to oneself With this broad definition of evidence, I would say that no one has ever believed anything without "evidence" of some kind. What's important is one's ability to examine the evidence which is presented to you and determine whether the evidence is substantial enough to warrant "belief." Obviously some people have a much lower standard for substantiality than others. These people may hear of or witness a "miraculous" event and believe it is of supernatural origin without really questioning the evidence they have and seeking alternative explanations. These are the types of people who will say things like "I missed my plane and it crashed. It was a miracle! God was watching out for me!" These people often can't understand why skeptics like us won't believe things "without evidence," when in reality, we (hopefully) critically examine the evidence presented to us and make our belief decision based on the examination. If we find the evidence to not be substantial, we don't believe. The great Edward Abbey once wrote, "The supernatural is a failure of the human imagination and an insult to the majesty of the real." Another Edward Abbey fan? He's one of my heroes! Desert Solitaire is a must read IMO.

12-12-2002, 11:58 AM	#112
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Desert Solitaire is a must read IMO. Right you are! The supernatural quote comes from Confessions of a Barbarian

12-12-2002, 01:04 PM	#114
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The supernatural quote comes from Confessions of a Barbarian That's one of his books I haven't read, though I've read excerpts. I'll have to pick it up.

12-12-2002, 01:06 PM	#115
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	See many of those "godlike entities'" hanging around the place, do you?

12-12-2002, 01:31 PM	#116
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	No, you don't. What's your point?

12-12-2002, 02:36 PM	#120
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	tronvillain my point is that if no one has ever seen a god or a godlike entity, and you saw a miracle why would you conclude that it came from something that you don't know exists? Seeing a miracle would only suggest that a miracle happened unless the miracle included the "godlike" entity.

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