Vinnie

That might make Barker proud! Unfortunately, I think you overlook the necessity of conjecture in historical reconstructions and I also think the resurrection accounts can be harmonized to a good degree.

Vinnie

Baloo

By "the necessity of conjecture in historical reconstructions", would you be referring to historical reconstruction based on innerent, perspicuous accounts? It seems unlikely; in fact, I'd say the extent to which historical accounts necessitate conjecture is the exact same as the extent to which they lack in both the "inerrency" and "perspicuousness" arenas.

"...to a good degree..." Hmmm, this makes me wonder. Exactly how does one make this distinction? Did I, for instance, "harmonize" the S1 and S2 at the start of my post to a "Fair" Degree, a "Good Degree", or an "Excellent Degree"? Should perspicuous accounts even require such "harmonizations"? Would you say that my S1 and S2 were inerrent and perspicuous, either before or after I'd harmonized them?

Curious how your mind works,

Baloo

Vinnie

"based on innerent, perspicuous accounts"

I stated earlier I do not find them to be inerrant. I don't agree with the perspicuos doctrine either.

And by the good degree I meant most if not all the discrepncies can be resolved in a viable manner concerning the resurrection.

Vinnie

Hondo

Vinnie,

I had an old football coach that had many great sayings. One of my favorites was, "never write a check that your ass can't cash. I believe that you recently wrote such a check with this little beauty.

Go to this sight, <a href="http://www.outreachjudaism.org/crucifix.html" target="_blank">http://www.outreachjudaism.org/crucifix.html</a>
and use the chart supplied, try to harmonize the resurrection accounts.

I double dare yah.

Hondo

Vinnie

Hondo, sometimes when you generalize and make assumptions about a person it backfires. I find your comments amusing in light of a thread I am participating in somewhere else:

<a href="http://pub5.ezboard.com/fzetoumenehoalethiafrm2.showMessage?topicID=51.top ic" target="_blank">http://pub5.ezboard.com/fzetoumenehoalethiafrm2.showMessage?topicID=51.top ic</a>

I went through the first one of the 17 (I think its 17) objections that Barker lists. Number two coming shortly. It will be a progressive work

The first one in Barker's list is the 8th of the chart.

I do not write checks I do not feel I am able to cash. After all is said and done, maybe I counted wrong and my funds will be insufficient but I double dare you to come and defend your implicit assertion that the accounts cannot be harmonized to a good degree. Can you cash the check you have written?

Vinnie

Vinnie

Hondo, number two of Barker's list of discrepancies is up (3 discrepancies from the page you gave have been addressed as I hit two birds there with one stone in the last installment). It might be of some interest to Baloo as well since the discrepancies I am attempting to resolve fall into the "challenging" category.

Vinnie

Hondo

Yo Vinnie

How ya doin?

Actually the resurrection chart that I sight has 23 distinct points to be harmonized.

If you would be so kind as to post your responses here on the sec web, I would appreciate it. It would be fun to see how the whole gang with it's myriad styles and flavors responds to your ideas.

I try to stay away from sights with pop up advertising. Plus the blue background, with the white font is hard on my old eyes.

As to your challenge that I join you in this little exercise, remember that I'm not the one making the outrageous claim, you are. Though, if you post your harmonizations on this sight, I would be happy to offer my humble opinion.

Hondo

spin

spin:
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1) Why should you believe that, Vinnie?
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Vinnie:
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It generally starts with treating the NT docs (especially the Gospels) as historical documents.
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When you don't know who wrote them, where they were written, who they were written by, for whom they were written or why they were written, how can you treat them as historical documents?

spin:
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2) If you had been born in Saudi Arabia, would you have either become a Muslim at birth, or later because of the weight ofcultural influence?
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Vinnie:
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That question is vacuous and fallacious. I think a lot of people don't question things (CHRISTIANS INCLUDED). Ergo, most just flow with the culture. I can't see how this could have any logical bearing on the validity of any religion though.
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You haven't made a case that the question is either vacuous or fallacious. You have merely assumed this. The unstated but obvious reasoning is that only one exclusive religion (at most) can be right. You having probably been born in a Christian country are reflective of the cutural traits of that country, including the religion. You are representative of the culture, nothing more. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, could you see yourself as anything but Muslim? You might answer the question this time.

spin:
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3) What is your position regarding other people who make such similar statements of faith as yours but about the Quran or the Upanishads? Are they right as well in such statements of faith or are they just as liable as you to believe whatever they've been fed by their cultures?
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Actually, what I said already commented on that:

"I believe that God has been revealed through divinely-inspired writings over the course of history. Due to God's image in man's creativity it can be said that many human creations- including writings, art, and music- contain a measure of inspiration."

But where there are competing truth claims only one can be correct. That is why I I feel first and foremost God has been revealed through the Bible (assumes some sort of canonization process of course but not a strict one by any means).
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Yet, the christian religion, like the Jewish or the muslim religions is exclusive. It claims to be the only right one.

spin:
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but because other people want you (and anyone else) to believe it. It's a case of: the more the merrier.
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Vinnie:
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You are running off into psychic assumption land now. How is it that you know my thoughts and why I believe certain things? Could you be over-generalizing or can you simply read my mind?
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It is possible. All you have to do is provide evidence for the contrary. Is it not true that people born in religious countries tend to take on the religions of those countries? Is it not true that cultures tend to shape the ideas of those individuals born in those cultures? When someone holds a belief or understanding which does not relect the culture then you have evidence of something which has jumped the tracks. What you have said reflects following the tracks.

spin:
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you merely render the text more acceptable to yourself and avoid the responsibility of analysing the text from an objective viewpoint. If you believe it and base personal principles on it, then you cannot perform a meaningful analysis of it. You just build a fence around it... to protect it.
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Vinnie:
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Actually, I said I believe it be a recording of a revelation of God because of a meaningful analyses
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Why?

Vinnie:
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(treating the NT as historical).
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How can you treat it as historical document when there is no way for you to do so? Who wrote the texts? Where were they written? Who were they written for? On what is the data contained in them based? You have no criterion for treating them as historical documents. You may as well treat the Robin Hood material as historical, or Lancelot du Lac. History has rules. If you want to do historical research then you need to follow rules. The first rule is validation of your source materials. I have seen no-one do so. Would you like to try?

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: spin ]</p>

Orpheus42

Wow, you just made a lot of blanket statements.

spin

How abou a specific complain or example which tickles your fancy?