Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Icarus · 06-02-2003, 01:22 PM

Magus55,

I'm sure you have your hands full, being outnumbered as you are. I'm just wondering if you have considered my post and if you intend to repsond. If not, please let me know so I will not waste any more time in a holding pattern over this thread. I have very little other to offer, since I agree with your opponents about ninety percent of the time and have regularly observed them covering all the bases themselves.

Please let me know,

Icarus

Hawkingfan · 06-02-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
One reason God allows pain and suffering is to test our faith ( i repeat, one reason - not the only one). God wants us to find out if we really are living for God, or if we are living for the world. If we can't rely on God in times of need, how can we rely on Him in times of happiness?

So if I wanted to find out if my children were loyal to me, or to test their faith in me, and will not just rely on me in times of need, I should allow pain and suffering, cause pain and suffering? If I wanted to teach them patience, I should do so by pain and suffering? I think there are plenty of other ways to do that without hurting someone, or allowing someone to be hurt without trying to prevent it.

nemesis855 · 06-02-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No he isn't. I think you have the wrong understanding of free will. Free will is not a supernatural ability that allows you to do anything you want, including choose not to die, if death is upon you. Free will is being able to make choices, good and evil, right and wrong while you are live. You have no control over death, therefore free will never enters the picture - you can't choose to live for as long as you want.

Why not? If man is made in the image of God, these "supernatural abilities" should be part and parcel of man's existance. The fact that God precludes man from "choosing" immortality (a la posting cheribums [sp?] at the Garden of Eden after man's fall) makes a mockery of the notion of "free will".

- Nemesis855

Mageth · 06-02-2003, 02:36 PM

You have no control over death, therefore free will never enters the picture - you can't choose to live for as long as you want.

That's right. God prevented man from exercising his free will to do that when He kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Eternal Life.

winstonjen · 06-03-2003, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Hey HJ, prove it.

Well, for a start, he hasn't given you wisdom enough to convert a single atheist from these boards...which should be a no-brainer for an all-knowing entity.

theophilus · 06-03-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JERDOG
So he has to find out something? Then don't claim that he is all knowing.

Argumentation is always so much more productive if the parties read carefully. The post did not follow here, but what he said was "God wants US to know, etc" Nothing about God having to "find out something."

The purpose of the testing, which you would know if you had the intellectual integrity to study what you presume to criticize, is to "prove," i.e., purify, develope experimentally, the quality of our faith.

Again here you say that god did not know something.
If god was all knowing as 99% of christians claim, then the idea of test giving is useless.

So does god know everyhting or not?

Ditto above.

theophilus · 06-03-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nemesis855
Why not? If man is made in the image of God, these "supernatural abilities" should be part and parcel of man's existance. The fact that God precludes man from "choosing" immortality (a la posting cheribums [sp?] at the Garden of Eden after man's fall) makes a mockery of the notion of "free will".

- Nemesis855

So much silliness.

Man is made "in the image" of God, i.e., a reflection of his existence. Not a "copy" of God. God's attributes, as a function of his being, cannot be transmitted.
God is spirit; man is material.
God is self-existent; man is contingent.
Human existence can only be understood in the context of God's purpose.
Free will, as you posit it, is an illusion; try breating underwater.

theophilus · 06-03-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft
No one claims that Columbus created America, or that Cleopatra rose from the dead.

Irrelevant. The source is the issue. If the existence of God is challenged because the basis for our knowledge is a book, then all knowledge based on books must also be denied.

theophilus · 06-03-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug
Regarding God's wonderful, infinite love:

Don't forget that God still loves all the souls he has banished to an eternity of indescribable pain and suffering, simply for not making a choice to believe in words written in a book.

Ignorance.

Man is condemned because he suppresses the knowledge of God that is apparent to all through the creation. All men are without excuse; they are in an active state of rebellion against their creator - an infinite offence against an infinite God.

theophilus · 06-03-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug
My post was merely illustrating the ridiculousness of the concept of "love" being behind the idea of unbearable punishment and torture as believed by many Christians. I guess you could say I'm mocking belief in such an idea, though it's not possible for me to mock some entity that I do not believe exists.

Your post was merely illustrating your ignorance of that which you presume to criticize. First, a misunderstanding of the concept of "love" as it relates to God - agape, not phileo.
Second, that this love is the motivation for judgement.

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06-02-2003, 01:22 PM	#101
Icarus Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 28	Magus55, I'm sure you have your hands full, being outnumbered as you are. I'm just wondering if you have considered my post and if you intend to repsond. If not, please let me know so I will not waste any more time in a holding pattern over this thread. I have very little other to offer, since I agree with your opponents about ninety percent of the time and have regularly observed them covering all the bases themselves. Please let me know, Icarus

06-02-2003, 02:36 PM	#104
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	You have no control over death, therefore free will never enters the picture - you can't choose to live for as long as you want. That's right. God prevented man from exercising his free will to do that when He kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Eternal Life.

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