Mageth

Gemma Therese:

God didn't need anything, but he wanted to share His love with us.

I'm assuming you're using the following definition of "want", and are not using "want" as a synonym for "need" or in the sense of "lacking":

want - to desire (a particular thing or plan of action).

OK, but it still seems "strange" (or, as I would put it, contradictory) that a god that knows everything and is perfect would want or desire anything as well.

So you're back to square one.

Mageth

Gemma Therese:

You must remember, God is not limitted by time. He exists outside of time. He is eternal, and eternity is a moment that is always happening.

Here you exhibit a common problem I see when one starts talking about something "not limited by time" and "outside" of time. You proceed to describe it with temporal terms such as a "moment" and "always happening." "Moment", "always", and "happen" are only applicable within a temporal reference frame. How can something happen at all without a temporal reference?

If god is truly "outside" of time, without a temporal reference, then god is static. Nothing "happens". It either is or it isn't. God could not "want" something and therefore cause it.

Those are my thoughts on the subject, anyways.

Bumble Bee Tuna

Ojuice-

Seeing as how every other technological advance that I have ever seen, involved no godly inspiration, I don't see any reason why fire would be different. As for the tribes, I really can't answer any of your questions. I was just reminded of a TLC special I saw with an explorer and a tribe he encounters that has never encountered another civilization. He shows them matches and mirrors and assorted tricks and then later on they show him their firemaking technique. Their language has never been heard before so they couldn't really ask 'how did you learn how to make fire?". BTW since when was Prometheus a god? I thought he was human.

I think it seems evident the gods did not evolve from spritual single-celled gods or something. My memory isn't perfectly clear on Greek myths but I seem to recall the gods all being descendent from two gods who had always existed, and that the god was told his son would be the death of him etc and Zeus is born and kills him and then all the gods come from Zeus and Hera...A few generations is not going to make any sort of evolutionary difference, and if they started from god-forms instead of the forms humans evolved form then they would not have the opportunity to evolve humanoid attributes. Maybe my understanding of Greek mythology is wrong, though. Feel free to enlighten me of the story of the origins of the gods.

-B

malookiemaloo

As a Christian, this is a question which has perplexed me consoiderably. I really do not think there is a definitive answer although I am glad He did create us otherwise I would not be here. Of course if I was never born I would not know any difference but I am here and despite the fact that life's arrows have wounded me like everyone else, on balance, I do not want God to 'uncreate' me.

God's purpose? He wants to be worshipped but I think you can discount any ego-centricity as creation has clearly caused him a lot of pain-indeed He was so grieved that He nearly destroyed us all at the flood. And this is to say nothing of the agony of the cross.

However I believe that the clue is in redemption.

It just appears to me (and this is purely my personal view) that God and His creatures could only have a really true close loving relationship if the creatures were given a free choice, rebelled and then bought back by Jesus's death on the cross. The love which His creatures have because of this redemptive act is taken to 'another dimension'.

It has been said that God-if He is all powerful-could create craetures already in this loving relationship with Him. Not so. He has already done this. He has created angels who are serve Him but they do not understand redemption. (Interestingly , there is NO way back for a fallen angel.)

Well, tis is the best I can do , I'm afraid.


m

markstake

Wow, left unattended, these discussions go WAY off topic very, very quickly! Thank you to those who stuck with the original. Just a reminder, we're talking about the Abrahamic view of God as omnipotent creator. Anything else is off-topic. (I can't discuss them all at once - my brain isn't that big).

Bumble Bee - You are right. You had a slightly different thrust, but the topic is very much the same. I'm new to these boards, and don't have time to read through everything.

And diana, if I knew how to make an icon stick its tongue out at you, I would. Maybe that will do it.

For those of you who are saying God wanted to share something with us: Isn't this a little ridiculous? How could he share something with us if we didn't exist? I don't think that position can be held along with the creator position.

Malookiemaloo writes:

No, I think if God wants to be worshipped, you'd have to go along with an egocentric jealous idea of God. Is this a bad thing? I don't think most versions of Abrahamic religions preclude this.

I think this is a valid reason. I don't necessarily think it's a good reason, but I think it's valid.

Opinions on this? Why isn't this a sufficient reason?

MrDarwin

I opened this discussion expecting to find some fascinating comments from theists, but except for one weak stab at it by Gemma Therese, our other theists seem to have ignored the question entirely. Is God's intent so mysterious that nobody can venture a guess or two?

Eric H

There is a way to search for a greatest purpose for the creation of the universe and life by finding answers to three questions.

Only search for the greatest meaning and the greatest purpose as you read this.

What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?

From humanities point of view what would be the greatest reason to be created by a God?

Would God want to create life that would need to be forgiven and shown mercy?
Would he want to create life so that it would conform to his way of doing things?
Would it give him pleasure, to sit back and look at the wonderful universe and life he has created?

The greatest reason God can have to create children is love.
Therefore the ultimate God humanity can have is a God who loves in the greatest way.

1, There must be a God who willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF, for all time and unconditionally.

This is the greatest reason to create children.

To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.

What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and conquer the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God can have to create mankind, is to love each and everyone of us, as he loves himself, then God must create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

2. All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally.

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

3. All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love all of God’s children (neighbours) as they love themselves, unconditionally.

Christ loves the father as he loves himself.
The Father loves Christ as he loves himself.
Is this how Christ is one with the father?
Is this how Christ wants us to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

God loves all of mankind as he loves himself.
Would this be the greatest love that he can have for each one of us?

This is the same language used in the greatest commandments.
Can it be that the language used in the greatest commandments applied to God and Christ first?
If we were created in the image of God, would it make more sense if humanities greatest purpose hangs on the greatest purpose for God?

What greatest thing can God create?

God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he would then become God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now become God the gardener’
God could create life with more intelligence to hunt for food, look for shelter, mate, and breed a future generation. If the knowledge and intelligence is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer, a pet owner; their behavior should not cause him too much trouble
God could create life with a progressive way of gaining knowledge and intelligence. God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Creating life in his own image is the greatest form of creation open to him. He now becomes God the Father; his children must be real children to him. He can create nothing greater because he cannot create anything greater than himself.

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the tiniest single cell of life right up to the giant structures of galaxies.

Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist by challenging the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, test them against any form of logic.
Did God have the ability to keep sin and evil from man? If the answer is yes, then we can conclude that He had a purpose great enough to allow evil and sin to exist.
Is the freedom to love in this way a purpose great enough to allow evil to exist? Can there be any greater purpose for God to create life? Can there be any greater purpose for humanity to exist? In human terms could this be the ultimate truth, the ultimate purpose for the existence of the universe and life.


peace

Eric

exile

I think this gets to the heart of the argument. IF God exists and created the universe his creation of the human race has a similar motivation to that which we have when we create our own children. We KNOW when he have children that they will suffer pain and unhappiness in their lives - and, eventually, death - but we have them anyway. This ascribes to God human characteristics and the Bible certainly portrays God in this way.

However since our own motives for having children are tied up with biological imperatives to reproduce (or if you are Xian, obeying the dictum "Go Forth and Multiply") why would God have any such motivation? Did "Go Forth" apply to God retrospectively? And in God's original design (before the Fall) was the idea of children include at all? Our human nature is inextricably bound up with our animal nature; why would an incorporeal being existing outside the universe be like us?

Of course eventually God does produce a son - and then arranges for him to be tortured and killed.

Eric H

Hello Macaskil,

Before we go any further does my last post make any sense as a greatest purpose for creation?

If it does, then there is ways to look at suffering, conflict war and death.

As you say in your last post, there seems to be similar charecteristics between what we think God is and how we look at ourselves.

As a Christian we call God our Father

peace

Eric

MrDarwin

The big problem with the parent/child analogy is that I suspect most human parents would spare their children suffering if they could. For example, I doubt most parents would stand by and allow their child to be hit by a truck, or raped and murdered, if they could help it. Nor does any sane parent demand the love of his child, and threaten the child with horrible torture if he doesn't get it.