HelenM

Originally posted by ax:

I do not desire to harm others, what I mean is: In the perfect state of heaven, satan sinned. I think we will be able to also.

That's not what I've been taught but it shouldn't be a sin to speculate that we will, imo.

Surely we cannot govern God's will? I believe that God's will shall go on no matter what I do, or what others do also.

In a sense His will will be done by definition and I can see how that leads to a "then what's the point?" type of question...

The bible states in MANY places (you should know your bible people) that God pre chose, predestined etc us, he knows the future, he knows what is going to happen.

Indeed. You're right.

I think jesus taught morality more than anything,

Actually I doubt this but I respect your own views on it. I think he was also quite anti-the way this world works and corrupt leadership. Also he had a strong belief in God and would have spoken about God - I would think.

it seems to be obvious that the gospel authors re-wrote some things after jesus' death, eg: only one gospel records the whole "undead" thing with the bodies of the dead wandering around the city, is it not wonderful that the 3 other gospel authors forgot about it?

I respect that it seems obvious to you. You are aware as well as I am that conservative Christians disagree

personaly I think that if jesus could see what has become of his teachings today he'd turn in his grave!!( )

You might be right. We don't really know do we?

love
Helen

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Tercel

Ax,
Your position quite confuses me. In one breath you seem to be a believing Calvinist, and then in the next quite anti-Christianity.

You keep insisting on predestination, which I consider a misguided attempt to give more power to God. The Bible teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8,16), that he is good to everyone his love like the sun shining on both good and wicked alike (Matthew 5:45). To say that God arbitrarily predestines people to an eternity in hell is surely inconsistent with such a God?

How do you know what state satan sinned in?
My thoughts on the matter of heaven and sin:
In this life we have a tendency to sin, we are corrupted and even the best human intentions fail because there is something fundamentally wrong with us. However in the life to come we will take off this corrupt nature, and in our new nature will be able to do that which we will. Yes it would be theoretically possible to sin in heaven but no one would because no one would want to do so.

For God to assert his will over us, is the same as to take our will away from us, which I believe he would not do.

So do I.

I don't think the mass resurrection thing happended literally either. Try seeing it as a metaphor symbolising the new life Jesus' death brought to us all.

I don't know about that. I think Jesus would be sad at what some who claimed to be his followers have done over the years. But by and large Christianity has brought a lot of good to the world and helped many many people.

HelenM

The thought among conservative Christians is that God will remove believers' desire to sin at death.

So they will be free but not anymore have a desire to choose sin; so they will not sin; there will be no sin.

No, I can't imagine what that exactly could be like...it's too different from all I know!

love
Helen

ManM

lpetrich,
I suspect our freedoms will take on a new character. The conditions of life will define our freedom, much like the conditions of this life limit us. Where as now we are limited by death and corruption, then we will be limited by immortality and incorruption. So if we are indestructible, how then can we harm each other? It will be analogous to the way physics limits our freedom now. Our internal freedom is forever ours.

With regards to my earlier comment to ax, I suggest it was more to the point than you realize. In my experience, people ask about sinning in heaven to establish that heaven would in fact be a dystopia along the lines of Brave New World. Sure everyone would be happy, but it would be at the expense of fundamental human dignity. If we are not free to sin in heaven, then is happiness really worth the sacrifice of freedom? Let me use my example from above. Who would be unhappy in a place where we all were physically invincible? It would only be those that wished to harm themselves or others, right? And so in order for ax to relate heaven to dystopia he would either have to believe invincibility is a bad thing or have the desire to harm someone. I basically assumed that ax would not have a problem with invincibility (or the conditions of nature which frustrate sin) and proceeded to ask him if he desired to harm others. If he doesn't desire to harm others then I suspect he will not be able to establish heaven as a dystopia. Or of course I could be entirely mistaken about his motivation. Maybe I should go ahead and start preparing to eat my foot now...

philechat

Ah...heaven. Don't even get me started on this topic. I think unless my nature is completely altered else I would commit suicide in boredom if I ever reached heaven (Boredom for eternity! Without any joy of problem solving and overcoming suffering! Without competitions and challenges!)

Such a "eternal sabbath" heaven would be the last thing I will. It's made for weak-willed natures anyways.

"In heaven all interesting people are missing"
~Nietzsche

Also note that Bernard Shaw considered the Christian heaven "hell" in his play Man and Superman.

ax

I have come to realize that in heaven we WILL have the ability to sin, but what is there to make us want to sin? We will have everthing we need to be happy, we won't be focusing on desires or whatever, anyway, we do not know what heaven is going to be fully like anyway. I have a theory, if anyone agrees then please tell me. here goes:
The fruits of the spirit can also be interpreted as the caracter of God. Although I believe the holy spirit is a very real person, I believe that if you act with the spirit of God in your life, and read the bible in mindfulness of the holy spirit, then yes- things in the scripture will be revealed in a different light than without it.( I'm taking the long way to say this, aren't I!)
Basically, to have the "fruits" of the spirit is to tap into the character of God. To a degree God was becoming a process, not a being.To an extent, I was creating God, and had been changing my perception of him with society.We try to understand God so much, we can spend our entire lives being caught up with it, but how much closer to ourselves does it get us? Personaly, I rush through life saying " when I get a job I'll be happy", and when I get one, " when I get a family I'll be happy". I've been moving through life rapidly and chaoticly trying to find God and happiness, when all I had to do was slow down and smell the roses-well, so to speak. I now think
that to understand God, all I have to do is obey him!! We all need to re-think our perceptions of God.There is no physical evolution, just spiritual. The spirit of God cannot be obtained FULLY by sermons and books ( although they are helpful), it must be evident in our lives!!!
Tell me if any of you disagree or have any other insight with this line of thinking..I'm only trying to learn and grow like the rest of you.

HelenM

Originally posted by ax:

I have come to realize that in heaven we WILL have the ability to sin, but what is there to make us want to sin? We will have everthing we need to be happy, we won't be focusing on desires or whatever, anyway, we do not know what heaven is going to be fully like anyway.

It makes sense to me that if all our desires are met, why would we sin - there would be no need to.

I think that's what you just said

I have a theory, if anyone agrees then please tell me.

sure!

here goes:
The fruits of the spirit can also be interpreted as the caracter of God.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Although I believe the holy spirit is a very real person, I believe that if you act with the spirit of God in your life, and read the bible in mindfulness of the holy spirit, then yes- things in the scripture will be revealed in a different light than without it.( I'm taking the long way to say this, aren't I!)

Yep.

You could also look at it this way - if you read a passage about God, and you already don't like the idea of God, you're likely to notice everything that could be construed as negative about God and it will confirm your dislike.

But when Christians read the Bible, they think about a passage that is hard, until they can defend God's role in it and find Him good even if there are things in it that people who dislike the very idea of God would point to and say "Hah! That passage shows God to be a complete asshole!"

That's why Christians and atheists will read the same passage and yet generally not end this sentence the same way "this passage shows God to be..."

Basically, to have the "fruits" of the spirit is to tap into the character of God.

Makes sense to me.

To a degree God was becoming a process, not a being.To an extent, I was creating God, and had been changing my perception of him with society.

I'm not sure whether you see this as good or bad, that you were doing this

Anyway I think it's fine to look at what you were doing and decide whether you want to continue that, or change direction.

We try to understand God so much, we can spend our entire lives being caught up with it, but how much closer to ourselves does it get us?

Indeed...it's important to have life-goals, then assess whether what you spend time on is really advancing your life-goals.

Personaly, I rush through life saying " when I get a job I'll be happy", and when I get one, " when I get a family I'll be happy". I've been moving through life rapidly and chaoticly trying to find God and happiness, when all I had to do was slow down and smell the roses-well, so to speak.

This is a key thing to having a happier life and I'm glad you've realized it already.

If you're focused on always wish for something you don't have, you'll never be happy. If you decide to enjoy what you do have then even if you realize you'd like to have some other things too, you aren't consumed by your longing for what you don't have; your ability to appreciate what you do have isn't thwarted. Being able to find 'contentment' in what you have is a wonderful thing. (It's also in a few Bible verses but, whatever )

I now think
that to understand God, all I have to do is obey him!!

It kinda depends what you mean by that. If you mean, the best way to enjoy life is to live it then, yes, I totally agree!

We all need to re-think our perceptions of God.There is no physical evolution, just spiritual. The spirit of God cannot be obtained FULLY by sermons and books ( although they are helpful), it must be evident in our lives!!!

Yep! And some people who have a lot of 'knowledge' don't seem full of the Spirit of God as in, having those characteristics do they?

I think you've noticed this...that it's not about age or knowledge. You can already be nicer than some older more knowledgeable people in the church!

Tell me if any of you disagree or have any other insight with this line of thinking..I'm only trying to learn and grow like the rest of you.

I don't expect many people here will be able to relate to stuff you say about God and the Holy Spirit.

If you can 'translate' that into the applications for you such as "because of thinking this I decided to such-and-such [get a pet, change courses etc]" then I think you'll find more common ground with them and they'll be able to comment on it too.

Because people with different beliefs sometimes end up with the same approach to life to some extent, I have found...

Thanks for sharing ax. You seem a bit happier in this post and I'm really glad to see that. Happy 4th!

love
Helen