Ion

You don't get it:

1) in line with your post, submit that your personal preference for the Bible "...can not be a basis for Universal Human Rights."


2) meanwhile,

2)a. your personal preference for the Bible is without merit anyway, because it is a preference for a belief unsupported outside its religion;

2)b. my personal preferences are for universal human rights that don't favor one doctrine over another, i.e. one personal preference bible over another personal preference bible.

lpetrich

lpetrich:
I'd hardly call the Jewish Diaspora great prosperity. Jews lived in small scattered communities, and were often despised and persecuted on account of their not believing in Jesus Christ or Mohammed, as the case may be.
dk:
Jews lived in small and large scattered communities. I would argue Jews have been persecuted precisely because they were prosperous. ...

However, if they had been as rich as aristocrats, they would have bought themselves aristocrat status. But they were unable to.

dk:
Except that a single deity and monotheism aren?t the same thing.

LOL.

I've posited a very simple hypothisis, that the domain of Universal Human Rights begins with the precept, "All persons are created equal before the Law, from king to pulper."

Except that that is not made explicit. One can make a stronger case that the composing of the Roman Twelve Tables was a recognition of equality before law; their composition was supposedly instigated by some Plebeians who were concerned that the Patricians were continually twisting the law to their convenience.

Old Man:
[i]The hypothesis is meaningless, unless it can first be proved that the law applies equally to all people. Only when you have demonstrated that a priori proposition, can you deduce a further proposition that all people are created equal before the law.
dk:
Sure, Here?s proof. A fetus becomes a baby, or dies, and logically abortion becomes a cause of death. Here?s another universal law, a baby becomes a child or dies, and logically infanticide becomes a cause of death. ...

Which is a big fat non sequitur. Natural laws != human laws.

(stuff about IQ values and IQ tests deleted...)

(stuff about abortions also deleted...)

dk:
....Because all termperal things are finite, hence caused.

I don't see the connection temporal > finite > caused.

DMB

Certainly in mediaeval Europe, one of the ways in which Jews were able to prosper was because they practised usury, which the church at that time forbade to xians (as muslims are still forbidden). The Jews offered a necessary money-lending service to society, but it was probably one of the reasons why they were unpopular. Moneylenders of any time and persuasion are usually unpopular because they are seen as bloodsuckers.

dk

I disagree, the US Declaration of Independence begins “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,” The concept galvanized the Colonial Revolution, Emancipation Movement, Women’s Rights Movement and the Civil Rights Movement, not just in the US but around the world. Interpreted under a scientific lens the phrase produces a meaningless truism, yet mysteriously continues to resonate with a vivid clarity of faith and reason in consort, one reliant upon the other’s appreciation for truth, the proof verified by the fruits of liberty and freedom that are inoffensive and inclusive to monotheist, polytheist, agnostic or atheist.

dk

As a sidebar, blue bloods added to their estates through wars, the most powerful nobles fielding the largest best trained and equiped army. This made war an expensive proposition that drove ambitious nobleman to borrow beyond their means, and if their debt became overwhelming they sent out assassins to put their finances in order.

dk

dk: ...I agree the Bible doesn’t prove itself, and to believe the Bible is the Word of God requires a leap of faith, but then its my experience that reason and faith are both necessary for people to understand one another. Faith without reason, or visa versa, tilts perspective out all proportions.
Ion: Reason can be objectively checked, while faith is subjective because it has no outside material corroboration.
dk: Really, well then you can certainly verify Weyl’s paradox that states:
”is a name that has been used for the paradox concerning the term 'heterological', which is supposed to apply to all and only terms which do not apply truly to themselves. The problem is that it then seems that 'heterological' is heterological if and only if it is not. This paradox was originally presented in 1908 in a paper by Kurt Grelling and Leonard Nelson, so that the term 'Weyl's paradox' is incorrect. Herman Weyl (1885-1955) was a German-American mathematician, physicist, and philosopher of science.”----- Oxford Companion to Philosophy , © Oxford University Press 1995
For example, there’s the Verification Principle, “according to which the significance of non-analytic sentences depends upon whether they can be tested, and utterances which are neither analytic nor empirically testable are meaningless.” ----- ibid
The Verification Principle is the basic tenant of Logical Positivism (science), the criticism follows from hierological implication, meaning the verification fails to judge itself, so many statements can be verified if conjoined with a suitably chosen other.
As a matter of fact, consciousness can’t be defined by science putting all of psychology in jeopardy of becoming nonsense. hehehehehe. That leaves us only self defining analytical systems with which to work. This was exactly the faculty Hume used to become the destroyer of Plato and Aristotle’s musings, and lead Kant to disconnect the human mind from reality. I don’t think you’ve grasped how quickly reason alone comes crashing down into cynicism around its own arbitrary untreatable imperatives.

Ion

How sober is your post, dk?

The US Declaration of Independence and its religious beliefs from a past century is local and has no bearing on how the UN Code of Human Rights raises and applies to many cultures, for example to my Romanian culture (including your Civil Rights, Colonial Revolution and your "...not just in the US but around the world." nonsense).

Ion

dk,

you are rambling again:

faith (in religion) is subjective as it is incoherent and uncorroborated by facts,

reason (in science) is objective as it is coherent (mathematics) and corroborated empirically (physics).

Take your post, for example.

It's a rambling about nothing:
see "...around its own abitrary untreatable imperatives.".

dk

o

1. lpetrich:
   I'd hardly call the Jewish Diaspora great prosperity. Jews lived in small scattered communities, and were often despised and persecuted on account of their not believing in Jesus Christ or Mohammed, as the case may be.
   dk: Jews lived in small and large scattered communities. I would argue Jews have been persecuted precisely because they were prosperous. ...
   lpetrich:
   However, if they had been as rich as aristocrats, they would have bought themselves aristocrat status. But they were unable to.
   dk: There have always been a surplus of bankrupt aristocrats, and they tend to survive just fine. Jews on the other hand being excluded have to work and earn their prosperity one day at a time.
   o
2. dk: I've posited a very simple hypothisis, that the domain of Universal Human Rights begins with the precept, "All persons are created equal before the Law, from king to pulper."
   lpetrich:
   Except that that is not made explicit. One can make a stronger case that the composing of the Roman Twelve Tables was a recognition of equality before law; their composition was supposedly instigated by some Plebeians who were concerned that the Patricians were continually twisting the law to their convenience.
   dk:
   Except nothing, the Roman Republic was replaced by a god emperor, so clearly led to tyranny. I don’t think you could find 1 in a million people that could list the Roman Twelve Tables, yet most common people have a working knowledge of the Ten Commandments, even those that argue against them. Its pretty clear the Ten Commandments remain influential in the modern world wheres the Roman Twelve Table lay forgotten in ruins. The Roman Empire was built and maintained on slavery, while Europe virtually abolished slavery in the Middle Ages.
   o
3. dk: Sure, Here?s proof. A fetus becomes a baby, or dies, and logically abortion becomes a cause of death. Here?s another universal law, a baby becomes a child or dies, and logically infanticide becomes a cause of death. ...
   lpetrich:
   Which is a big fat non sequitur. Natural laws != human laws.
   (stuff about abortions also deleted...)
   dk:I didn’t equate Natural Law with human law, but, “when one law breaks another people live lawlessly”. People don’t have the potential to break Natural Law.
   o
4. dk:....Because all temporal things are finite, hence caused.
   lpetrich:
   I don't see the connection temporal > finite > caused.
   dk: Anything that exists in temporal time has a beginning, therefore contingent upon some preceding event. A baby is finite, therefore contingent upon an act of procreation. I don’t know how anyone can miss the connection.

lpetrich

lpetrich:
However, if (the Jews) had been as rich as aristocrats, they would have bought themselves aristocrat status. But they were unable to.
dk:
There have always been a surplus of bankrupt aristocrats, and they tend to survive just fine.

Because they already have assets: their estates. Get a clue.

Jews on the other hand being excluded have to work and earn their prosperity one day at a time.

However, contrary to the rich-Jew stereotype, many Jews had remained relatively poor.

(Twelve Tables representing equality before law more clearly...)
Except nothing, the Roman Republic was replaced by a god emperor, so clearly led to tyranny.

So what? Do wicked monarchs invalidate the Bible?

I don?t think you could find 1 in a million people that could list the Roman Twelve Tables, yet most common people have a working knowledge of the Ten Commandments, even those that argue against them. ...

Including the one that forbids making representations of anything?

And let us not forget about how lax Jesus Christ was about two of the Commandments. I'm not going to tell which ones, because dk ought to know.

Because all temporal things are finite, hence caused.
I don't see the connection temporal > finite > caused.
Anything that exists in temporal time has a beginning, therefore contingent upon some preceding event. A baby is finite, therefore contingent upon an act of procreation. I don?t know how anyone can miss the connection.

If a closed loop of time is possible, then an entity can be both temporal and uncaused.