Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Coljac · 04-30-2002, 12:05 PM

I'd like to be a "brain". How do I qualify?

Nobody has yet mentioned the rather glaring objection to this argument, that not all evil is based on a human choice, or is in proportion to that choice. Simple examples - children with cancer, tidal waves, wasp stings, cafeteria food, nuclear accidents, earthquakes. These aren't caused by the exercise of free will (well, except by evil cafeteria chefs and supervillains).

A more complicated example: a child who places a rock on a railroad track to see what happens, and the train derails and crashes through a pre-school. Sure, the evil consequences stemmed from a moral choice - the child was aware he was doing something bad, let's say - but is the wreck of the train/school necessary to grant the child free will? What if the rock shot out from the tracks and winged the kid a little?

Lastly, free will is in itself not so black and white. I don't have the freedom to choose to eliminate all my enemies by thought alone. I'm limited in my capabilites to do both good and evil. So, if I didn't have the capability to choose to, say, ram my car into a schoolbus, would I no longer have free will? Why is the set of my possible actions and choices so large as to include the ability to harm so many innocent people?

As a sidebar, I think the concept of free will is overrated. We're all constrained by our past experiences and our physical natures. The only truly free will, I sometimes wonder, would be randomness.

-coljac

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-30-2002, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Matt,

This statement is non-sensical.

Consequence of choice in no way diminishes ones ability to choose.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

STOP GETTING THE DOCTRINE OF FREE WILL WRONG GODDAMNIT!

How is that I know more about this stupid, asinine, logically flawed construct than you do?

Clucking bell!

Beside that, if I punch you or hug you, you do not have any choice at all; I will still be the one affecting you.

No choice, just the illusion of choice as the dominatrix slaps your ass.

Jabbersnacky · 04-30-2002, 01:08 PM

Sorry it took me so long to get back I'm having one of those days and Murfy keeps pooping on my parade.

Quote:

Originally posted by sandlewood:
I found it strange that this theist would bring up the controversy of abortion in this context. In my experience, most Christians come down on the side of anti-choice. Is this one pro-choice?

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]

Yes, no, maybe. He's stayed away from the nasty abortion debates that have come down mostly he tries to come across a reasonable, and level headed, but he definitely tries to convert and come off from the moral high ground too. that's the funny part is he tries really hard to make me look unreasonable, and illogical because I won't accept the reality of God <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

I think he's anti abortion for him and his if I remember him saying so at some point, but he won't decide for others although would he not be doing just that deciding for his?

Anyway, I'm going to read the rest of the reply's too now. thank you I'm digesting this all. I guess I have to decide how I'll try and knock down his house of cards, or not.

He is one of the more reasonable on the forum he on, so sometimes I don't bother with him because he's not being a big jerk. his mention brussel sprouts instantly reminded me of George the Turnip.

what I find funny and how I summed it up which I don't know if I'm right or wrong. I'm sure his response is that I just didn't get it. IS that he's trying to convince people who do not believe. that evil exists because god is good and doesn't want to restrict us from choosing Evil or good . Some how this means I should believe in God because evil is good, and morality and choice of not being, or doing evil, is part of the free will provided by God which is good. So God's good, goods good, evil good, choice good, because you can choose good evil, or good...... Oh Good God!!!!!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

My head hurts that's not good. Going to read and shut up now

Jabbersnacky · 04-30-2002, 05:02 PM

Well I came back and read all the responses finally, Thank you everyone. It's so true that when threatened with punishment of an action there is no free choice unless youre a masochist.

this kinda goes with a previous argument I had where he was postulating that evil exists in mans action and that proves that there is a God because how would you explain evil existing if there was no counter force that also existed. Of course that one wasn't a difficult one to answer. One has to believe that evil is something beyond the control and creation of man before one could be sucked into that one. Of which there is no logical explanation to prove that what we call evil isn't just human nastiness. It was fun watching him try and convince me though. you know ghosts, Hitler etc......

My brain is working better now after many cups of coffee and spending some time reading rational thought rather than Religious rhetoric

I'm Known fondly on that BB as Homopromo girl, That burka wearing satanist, and freak of nature

Pleased to meet you all <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: janua vitae ]

hinduwoman · 04-30-2002, 05:13 PM

Ask the christian what exactly he means by evil. does he mean natural things like earthquakes or diseases, or does he mean moral evils, which includes denying God?

Heydude · 04-30-2002, 05:15 PM

I like the Buddhist explanation of what happens after death best. If we are all a little part of life, like a wave is part of the ocean, then we don't need to fear death because life will go on. Our DNA can become part of another form of life.

I think it would be really tragic if people had such fear of life they wasted the precious one that they have.

It is such a miracle that we are alive. There is happiness in appreciating every breath.

Jabbersnacky · 04-30-2002, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Ask the christian what exactly he means by evil. does he mean natural things like earthquakes or diseases, or does he mean moral evils, which includes denying God?

I asked him but I will probably have to wait until tommorow for his answer he's not around much at night. I feel obligated to take on his post because of the 3 Atheist on the board I seem to be the only one actually challenging his ideas. I guess I feel a need to be outspoken so I and and the other 2 won't appear weak Gee what kinda stupid and ego stroking is that

Quote:

If we are all a little part of life, like a wave is part of the ocean, then we don't need to fear death because life will go on.

I've alway like Buddhist philosophy, that and Taoism. A health mind set.

Jabbersnacky · 05-01-2002, 08:32 AM

Well i don't know if anybody is really all that interested in this, but moving right along in the debate here are the latest entries by my friend/foe

what he means by evil:

Quote:

Well Cap you are pretty much right, but natural disasters were much further down on the list because often times, humans interfere or sometimes get in the way of nature and pay a steep price. Kinda like scientists warning people here in Florida to stop building on the sea coast to no avail. When a hurricane comes and destroys everything out there, someone will be blaming God for it even though they have been hitting the coast long before any of us ever came here.

I guess the 'evil' that springs to most people's minds are examples like 9/11 or the Holocaust or a child killer and that is more of what I had in mind.

As for shortening it, I could have, but you know me by now. I like to be very thorough ESPECIALLY on religious and historical matters because ONE too many words or one less word can steer someone in an entirely different direction and when you consider the stakes....oh well.

He add's a few more things:

Quote:

To add a few more things.

I may not be committed to the deepest principles of Christianity (usually the ambiguous many rules some churches have), but since it is what I I grew up with, Christianity is what I know best and generally defend...PURE Christianity in it's simplest sense that is. However, in the hands of many people over the course of history, it, as well as other religions, have been used as excuses for blooshed and all manner of evils from robbing people blind to turning people into relgious zombies which is where Roliin and I firmly agree. This is why I can meet Rollin half way. The key difference is I do not blame God or hold Him responsible...I blame people USING the name of God or religion to do their wickedness. Ultimately it all happens under his watch, but then we have to toss in the points of my initial post into the mix.

I make no pretensions I have not questioned God. I make no bones I have not gotton frustrated at his 'plans.' I do NOT sit back and state, "well..uh...I should not question God." I DO! And I have. It's the way I have gotten answers. I am not different a man than the prophets of old who did question Him from David to Jeremiah. Heck, even His Son asked on the cross even with the full knowledge of what was going on.

This is one the reasons I have always suggested the books Where is God when it hurts and Disappointment with God written by Phillip Yancey, to people. The last time I did so, I think many misunderstood my intentions. The latter book has people like Rollin and me to an extent in mind. The person whom the book surrounds, ask some very valid question and points out some very good observations. One that springs to mind is the example of Job. The book of Job basically paints the idea that God made a deal with the devil using Job as a pawn just to validate His glory and affirm Job's undying faith (of course we are not painted THIS picture in church).
How would you like to know that God 'allowed' satan to destroy your whole life including taking away your children just to prove a point? And even if God was able to restore your life and replenish your stock of children, do you EVER forget those you lost or feel they can be replaced? THOSE are questions some people ask and there may not be any answers on this side of life. The story of Job may have a different spin to some and not the traditional happy ending. So you can either pump an angry fist at God and deny Him (which I am not so sure what one has to do with the other) or just admit He exists and not play for his team because He does not suit your tastes.

I liked this response by one of the agnostics on the board:

Quote:

"The key difference is I do not blame God or hold Him responsible..."

Well now, to be fair, one would have to know that such a God exists in order to blame Him no ? But in the other hand, I "blame Him" only when I am told that He is responsible for everything that happens on this planet. Can't have it both ways, He either is or isn't and like I pointed out to you before, God is either omnipotent or not, and if He is not omnipotent, then He is not God.

I'm reading the other threads here that cover the same topic, Wow I love you guys and girls <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> (really not worthy)

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-01-2002, 08:53 AM

Reasonable,

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt:

To slide from a discussion of free choice to a discussion of choice is non-sensical (at best). The "consequence of choice" can easily diminish the freedom to choose.

This statement is verifyably false.

Ramifications of choice in no way diminish the choices we have.

I believe what you are trying to say is
'consequences of choice' may influence which choice we make'.

On this point I whole heartedly agree.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-01-2002, 09:10 AM

Freethinker,

Quote:

Originally posted by free12thinker:


Satan,
You can make this statement in a literal sense, but consequences do diminish someone's ability to choose. If someone want's to do A, but doing A will lead to something bad, than are REALLY free to do A?

Yes. What one 'wants' to do is completely different than what one 'can' do.

Quote:

Originally posted by free12thinker:

Of course they can do whatever they want, but when doing what they want can lead to something they don't want, than there's not really freedom to choose,

Respectfully...this is false.

Eating pizza (what I want) can lead to heartburn (something I don't want). This does not mean I have no choice in whether or not I eat pizza.

Quote:

Originally posted by free12thinker:

True freedom is choice without fear of retaliation.

While this may be a pleasant sounding euphimism it is not an accurate definition. A more accurate and less emotional description would be simply 'freedom is the ability to choose.'

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

04-30-2002, 05:02 PM	#14
Jabbersnacky Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: primordial stew Posts: 495	Well I came back and read all the responses finally, Thank you everyone. It's so true that when threatened with punishment of an action there is no free choice unless youre a masochist. this kinda goes with a previous argument I had where he was postulating that evil exists in mans action and that proves that there is a God because how would you explain evil existing if there was no counter force that also existed. Of course that one wasn't a difficult one to answer. One has to believe that evil is something beyond the control and creation of man before one could be sucked into that one. Of which there is no logical explanation to prove that what we call evil isn't just human nastiness. It was fun watching him try and convince me though. you know ghosts, Hitler etc...... My brain is working better now after many cups of coffee and spending some time reading rational thought rather than Religious rhetoric I'm Known fondly on that BB as Homopromo girl, That burka wearing satanist, and freak of nature Pleased to meet you all <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> [ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: janua vitae ]</p>

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04-30-2002, 12:05 PM	#11
Coljac Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 6	I'd like to be a "brain". How do I qualify? Nobody has yet mentioned the rather glaring objection to this argument, that not all evil is based on a human choice, or is in proportion to that choice. Simple examples - children with cancer, tidal waves, wasp stings, cafeteria food, nuclear accidents, earthquakes. These aren't caused by the exercise of free will (well, except by evil cafeteria chefs and supervillains). A more complicated example: a child who places a rock on a railroad track to see what happens, and the train derails and crashes through a pre-school. Sure, the evil consequences stemmed from a moral choice - the child was aware he was doing something bad, let's say - but is the wreck of the train/school necessary to grant the child free will? What if the rock shot out from the tracks and winged the kid a little? Lastly, free will is in itself not so black and white. I don't have the freedom to choose to eliminate all my enemies by thought alone. I'm limited in my capabilites to do both good and evil. So, if I didn't have the capability to choose to, say, ram my car into a schoolbus, would I no longer have free will? Why is the set of my possible actions and choices so large as to include the ability to harm so many innocent people? As a sidebar, I think the concept of free will is overrated. We're all constrained by our past experiences and our physical natures. The only truly free will, I sometimes wonder, would be randomness. -coljac

04-30-2002, 05:13 PM	#15
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Ask the christian what exactly he means by evil. does he mean natural things like earthquakes or diseases, or does he mean moral evils, which includes denying God?

04-30-2002, 05:15 PM	#16
Heydude New Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 1	I like the Buddhist explanation of what happens after death best. If we are all a little part of life, like a wave is part of the ocean, then we don't need to fear death because life will go on. Our DNA can become part of another form of life. I think it would be really tragic if people had such fear of life they wasted the precious one that they have. It is such a miracle that we are alive. There is happiness in appreciating every breath.

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