Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CALDONIA · 08-07-2003, 12:45 PM

We already have a santimonious clown in the White House. Lieberman's tepid protest against the President's policies makes him an enabler.

I don't believe running mates exert a lot of influence in a presidential race, but would not Gore have been better served with a firebrand like Dean on the ticket than Holy Joe?

Sci_Fidelity · 08-07-2003, 01:44 PM

Posted by Ohwilleke:

Quote:

Lieberman is particularly weak on seperation of church and state which is an issue near and dear to me. He has also been unwilling to take on Bush compared to other candidates.

Why do so many people misspell separation? Anyway, during the 2000 campaign, he made statements about Americans having freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. That by itself is enough to put him on my blacklist.

crazyfingers · 08-07-2003, 02:00 PM

I had heard that Dean was quoted once as saying that he is "sick and tired of listening to fundamentalist preachers."

If that's the case then I like the guy.

Anyone know if it's true? That attitude is certainly not true of Lieberman who has had some pretty close ties to the Christian fundie right wing.

crab juice · 08-07-2003, 02:56 PM

It's true, crazyfingers, a highlight in an already rousing, inspiring speech. Way down at the bottom of this page is a link to that speech, from the California Democratic Convention (requires RealOne to view), the Dean footage starts about 25 minutes in. Definitely worth a look.

Mr. Superbad · 08-07-2003, 03:12 PM

Dean not only claims to have opposed the Iraq war from the beginning, he actually did oppose the Iraq war from the beginning.

Quote:

"there's substantial doubt that [Saddam Hussein] is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." - September 06, 2002

"Dean, who is an underdog in the presidential race, said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them." - September 18, 2002

""the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test."

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them." - September 18, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts." - December 22, 2002

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.'' - February 12, 2003

"See, I don�t think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in. That case has not been made, either by the president or Secretary Powell, and I don�t think that we ought to go in, if we don�t want to use the word unilaterally, than preventively or pre-emptively." - March 09, 2003

ohwilleke · 08-07-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sci_Fidelity
Posted by Ohwilleke:

Why do so many people misspell separation? [/B]

Because I'm a sloppy typist, especially on the boards.

Optional · 08-07-2003, 08:57 PM

One comment. I was forced to listen to Hannity on the drive home the other day (had to work through my regular peeps) and listened to a conversation between hannity and bill butler (bradly? the neocon gambling guy) about how Lieberman was th only good candidate the dems had, they could really get behind Lieberman.

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

-me

Ultron · 08-07-2003, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krieger
Incorrect, Representative Dennis Kucinich voted against going to war.

I know he voted against a recent appropriations bill for the military but I'm sure the only nay vote was Mosley-Braun. Help me out here.

Ultron · 08-07-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by butswana
Lieberman comes off like Ben Stien in Ferris Beuler's Day Off, or that Steven Wright comedian. He is more wooden than Pinochio.

So is Al Gore. But that didn't make him a Conservative.

On the issues however Lieberman is more left-wing than Gore.

Ultron · 08-07-2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohwilleke
One reason I support Dean is that he didn't support the war or the Patriot Act. (Admittedly he wasn't in Congress, but he is true enough to his beliefs to take a stand unlike so many of our mealy mouthed members of Congress). The fact that every Democratic front runner other than Dean supported the Patriot Act is a crying shame.

Point taken from you and kwigibo but the only major issue I am hearing about is the war.

I will say this, it heartens me to see people HERE at least recognize the Patriot Act was a legislative act, not an executive act.

You don't probably remember my comments on judicial review a few months ago and the Supreme Court assuming extra powers outside the Constitution, but the Patriot Act is an example of the legislative branch taking powers unto itself outside of Constitutional boundaries.

Yet people here defend judicial review.

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08-07-2003, 12:45 PM	#11
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	We already have a santimonious clown in the White House. Lieberman's tepid protest against the President's policies makes him an enabler. I don't believe running mates exert a lot of influence in a presidential race, but would not Gore have been better served with a firebrand like Dean on the ticket than Holy Joe?

08-07-2003, 02:00 PM	#13
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	I had heard that Dean was quoted once as saying that he is "sick and tired of listening to fundamentalist preachers." If that's the case then I like the guy. Anyone know if it's true? That attitude is certainly not true of Lieberman who has had some pretty close ties to the Christian fundie right wing.

08-07-2003, 02:56 PM	#14
crab juice Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: A million miles away... Posts: 229	It's true, crazyfingers, a highlight in an already rousing, inspiring speech. Way down at the bottom of this page is a link to that speech, from the California Democratic Convention (requires RealOne to view), the Dean footage starts about 25 minutes in. Definitely worth a look.

08-07-2003, 08:57 PM	#17
Optional Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 1,049	One comment. I was forced to listen to Hannity on the drive home the other day (had to work through my regular peeps) and listened to a conversation between hannity and bill butler (bradly? the neocon gambling guy) about how Lieberman was th only good candidate the dems had, they could really get behind Lieberman. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned. -me

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