Quetzal

stonetools: Not to take you to "task" as you say, but rather to address one statement of yours I find interesting: In the first place, I assume you are an advocate of relative freedom of speech. If so, your position here is untenable. Dr. Dawkins is entitled to his opinion, whether you agree with it or not. The second issue is your apparent assumption that "atheism" or "evolution" represents some monolithic institution whose membership has the ability to censor other members. Since this is manifestly not the case (c.f., Gould/Eldridge/Lewontin et al vs Dawkins/Dennett/Mayr et al over PE), again your position is unrealistic. Finally, it would seem to me to be in much more the theistic evolutionists/mainstream religionists interests to squelch the more ridiculous utterances of the YECs and sheer bad science of the IDers and anti-evolution OECs. After all, these fools cause more bad publicity for religion than any number of atheists. You would be better off demanding your co-religionists police their own than attempting to blame "atheists" for their atheism - regardless of how popular an individual atheist's writings may be.

Nic Tamzek

Huh. Weird thread.

All I would note is that if I'm understanding things correctly then Stonetools isn't saying anything that Eugenie C. Scott hasn't said a hundred times already.

I don't think we can blame YEC on Dawkins, actually, although maybe the recent events in England can be, I dunno. But I am of the general opinion that the ID movement's primary inspiration is Richard Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker. Certainly if you did a citation study I bet that would be the case -- Dawkins will get cited in chapter 1 of approximately every ID book, and repeatedly thereafter.

Generally what will get cited is just a few Dawkins quotes, and I often wonder if most IDists have read anything else in Dawkins' book (they are, after all, still mostly about biology, that is what makes them valuable IMO, I just wish he would leave the religion (atheism advocacy) out of it, or at least treat it sympathetically like Carl Sagan so often did). But in any case they're there.

Formula for ID:

- the complete failure of YEC becoming obvious to even highly sympathetic audiences through (1) the courts and (2) places like talkorigins.org

- some info-complexity babble

- the less-directly refutable and vaguer bits of YEC

- Dawkins quotes


It is too bad Carl Sagan isn't around still, he was in fact a agnostic rather than an atheist and had significant understanding when it came to the religious feelings of people.

nic

hezekiah jones

I think stonetools has made a really good point - reinforced it, actually. The so-called "debate" between evolution and creationism most often has little to do with science. It's pure politics, perpetrated by a bunch of religious people up in arms because the hard data gleaned from observations of the universe threatens their faith and their ability to protect the faith of their children. Life's a bitch.

By the way, comparing Richard Dawkins to Kent Hovind for any purpose whatsoever is utterly ridiculous. Kent Hovind has contributed absolutely nothing to human understanding beyond a few tidbits of unintentional humor.

Corona688

Stonetools, there are many scientific facts against Young Earth Creationism besides Evolution.

There's radioactive dating, which shows that the world is much older than 4000 years; astronomy, which has shown that the universe itself has an age measured in -billions- of years; astronomy and physics, which shows that the world is not the centre of the universe; geology, which shows the world is not flat; mathematics, which shows that Pi is 3.14159... not 3 - in direct contradiction to the bible, btw - and on and on and on... evolution is but one argument - an important one, but not the only one.

If you want to eliminate all threats to Young Earth Creationism from the school system, you won't just have to remove biology, you'll also have to remove physics, and every other science along with it, since physics underpins everything else.

Lastly, evolution does not disprove God, just Young Earth Creationism. There might still be one for all we know(though I doubt it), just not one as you understand it.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Corona688 ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

Um, that and the fact that WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE BELIEVE IN FAIRY TALES HAS ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE IN SCHOOLS OTHER THAN AS PASSING CURIOUSITY.

Excuse me. Just had to clear my throat there.

Wait, there's one more coming on...TOUGH TITTY.

Ahh, much better. Thanks.

Daggah

Seriously, how often has the atheist viewpoint been belittled or marginalized? And now you're telling us that some of the few people willing to step forth and defend it should be silenced?

Wow, is all I can say. Wow.

If Dawkin's atheistic viewpoint offends you, then feel free to not read his books. If it offends you that he is a vocal atheist, then that's just too bad. I fail to see how you can whine about such a little thing as this when atheists have been scapegoated and persecuted by Christianity for centuries.

Koyaanisqatsi

Not to mention that pig-assed ignorant preachers actually tell their flock to go out and knock on people's doors with their cult bullshit!

Frankly, I think we atheists should start advertising on TV day and night and form the PTL club (Praise The Liberated) and start going door to door deprogramming people from their cult indoctrination.

I think we should elect a President who immediately ceases all funding to any church that can't clearly show that 99 cents out of every single dollar they receive goes entirely to charity and nothing else while at the same time yanking their priviledged tax-free status unless they can do likewise.

I think we should spend hundreds of millions of dollars on litigating cults and I think we should form radical atheist fanatics that surround churches and synagogues during their indoctrination sessions, chanting the whole time the one and only truth.

I think we should kill anyone who kills an abortion doctor and go to christian work places in order to harass them non-stop for believing in obvious nonsense.

I think we need to hunt down and torture christians so that they confess their atheism and those that don't confess, we should murder in the name of their false god. We should burn their homes and steal their wealth for our own and build an empire that will reign terror on the believers for millenia, spreading our word throughout the entire world in order to force people to see the truth or die.

Hey, it's exactly how the christian cult rose to power. Gimme that old time religion, gimme that old time religion, gimme that old time religion, or I'll murder you in your sleep!

Ok, now I'm done. That was a particularly long, fetid glob of bile caught in my throat for some time now.

Back to the pathetic rationalization of grown men who think Santa Clause actually created the universe.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

pseudobug

Koyaanisqatsi, All I can say is.....
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

I laughed until I had tears in my eyes--nice rant.

What's sad is that when one point out the above to most Christians--no matter how it is done--the response is immediate denial or some crap about how Gawd loves all of his children.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: pseudobug ]</p>

stonetools

Koyaanisqatsi
Glad you got that bile out. Always happy to supply medical service.Much of what you have suggested has already been tried, in the Stalinist purges of the 1920s and 1930s. Mao tried this too , in china in the 1950s and 1960s. Hitler tried to wipe out Judaism, and Polish Catholicism. He considered both slave religions. Pope John Paul II survived that last, only to have to enjoy a generation of "enlightened", no-gods-allowed Communism. And religious believers of all stirpes are being persecuted in China to this very day...
OK , history lesson over. Militant Christianity has done terrible things to athiests and other believers over the centuries. Militant atheism has returned the favor in spades, killing more people (including believers) than were killed in all religious wars in history.
It is the polarization of issues, and a warlike us vs them mentality that led to all the killing.
I am suggesting that we try to rein in such attitudes on both sides.
Plenty of religious leaders, starting with the Pope, has spoken out vs YEC. I have done so myself on other forums. But no one on II seems to want to critcize Dawkins or anyone else for contributing to the politicization of the debate through gratuitious religion bashing, or for mixing in their philosophy with science. It is almost as if you don't want to admit that your heroes could ever be wrong . I find this attitude as disturbing as folks on my side who defend YEC because " at least it's Christian".
BTW, you really ought to go to a doctor, get that bile thing checked out HTH

Mad Kally

It didn't take long for the stoned santa to reappear.