Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spaz · 05-23-2003, 02:50 PM

Is that a spine drawn on that dino? It looks like they drew the spine in a blueish over it, perhaps they found the bones and made the picture? (seeing as you can't very well see bones through its body.)

Mageth · 05-23-2003, 04:06 PM

patrick:

However, I am pretty sure that Winged-Human-Lions were pretty common in ancient Mesopotamia, and that winged snakes were pretty common in south america at one point.

If I'm not mistaken, that's a Babylonian Gate Guard that has the head of a man, the wings and feathers on the forepart of an eagle, the forepart and forefeet of a lion, and the hindquarters and rear feet of a bull or ox, IIRC. Though it seems to have an extra bull leg in there...

Compare that to the Assyrian or Akkadian karibu, winged creatures with human faces, the bodies of lions or bulls, and the wings of eagles.

They're also associated with the Zodiac, but I think the eagle's been replaced by the scorpion. IIRC, the Zodiac back then (5k years ago; it's changed due to precession) had Aquarius (Man) corresponding to the Winter Solstice, Taurus (bull) to the Vernal Equinox, Leo (lion) to the Summer Solstice, and Scorpio (eagle) corresponding to the Autumn Equinox.

One interpretation is that the lion dominates over wild animals, the bull or ox over domestic animals, the eagle over birds and man over creation in general.

Note that the Hebrew Cherubim and the Islam el-karrubiyan are both derived from karibu. And not just in name...think of the two cherubim placed at the gates of Eden, and compare that to the two karibu placed at the gates of Babylonian temples.

Compare that to Ezekiel 1:10, writing of a vision he had while in Babylon:

10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Note that the "symbols" of the four Apostles are Luke (the Bull), Mark (the Lion), John (the Eagle) and Matthew (the Man).

Note also that Toltec astronomy divided the world into five �directions� � north, south, east, west and center, the first four ruled by the Bull, Lion, Eagle and Man.

Interesting stuff.

Mageth · 05-23-2003, 04:09 PM

That creature appears to have the head and neck of a serpent/dragon, body of a bull, and almost definitely the tail of a scorpion, another symbolic animal used in such blended creatures. The legs might be a lion's legs, but I can't tell.

Another made-up image that blends several creatures; not a dinosaur.

Dr.GH · 05-23-2003, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

That creature appears to have the head and neck of a serpent/dragon, body of a bull, and almost definitely the tail of a scorpion, another symbolic animal used in such blended creatures. The legs might be a lion's legs, but I can't tell.

Another made-up image that blends several creatures; not a dinosaur.

A very good observation. Well done.

Mageth · 05-23-2003, 07:03 PM

I said above, in regards to the image Patrick posted:

If I'm not mistaken, that's a Babylonian Gate Guard...

I looked it up in a Joseph Campbell book and found it's a portal guard from the palace of Ashurnasirpal II at Nimrud, Assyria, 883-859 B.C.E. Made of limestone; height, 11 ft 6 in.

I'd also add that, for the Toltec trivia I posted, I haven't been able to verify that info, but in any event it would be a jaguar and not a lion!

Vorkosigan · 05-23-2003, 11:20 PM

(And, I swear I recently saw an actual fossil of a mini-plesiosaur, like, 6-9 inches long; the shortest referenced plesiosaur I found on the web is 2 meters; perhaps I saw a baby or something? It was at this guy's house who collects fossils.)
[/QUOTE]

VERY common -- they are for sale all over the place here in Taiwan. There's a place in China where they are mined and sold by the thousand. I have considered shelling out for one, they are so beautiful.

Doubting Didymus · 05-25-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaz

Is this thing really supposed to be ancient aboriginal rock art? After all, to support their assertion (dinosaurs existed less than 6000 years ago), it would have to be at least older than the last couple of hundred years.

However, it looks nothing like any rock art I've ever seen.

Those might be a little unfair, as they're both a bit old.

This one is one of the most recently painted examples from kakadu,

You'll notice the "x-ray" style of that fish, similar to the way the supposed plesiosaur is represented. You'll also notice that this painting is on a frigging ROCK. I don't know what they expect us to think that plesiosaur is painted on, but it sure as heck isn't outdoors. You'll note the condition of the plesiosaur painting is completely perfect, while even the most recent of authentic historical aboriginal art has deteriorated at least a bit. How old do they expect us to believe this thing is?

Azathoth · 05-25-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
VERY common -- they are for sale all over the place here in Taiwan. There's a place in China where they are mined and sold by the thousand. I have considered shelling out for one, they are so beautiful.

How much are they being sold for?I might have an interest in getting one,myself.

MrDarwin · 05-26-2003, 07:02 AM

That aboriginal painting is a recent one, and comes from this Answers in Genesis article:
Australia�s Aborigines... Did they see dinosaurs?

If anybody is representing it as ancient rock art, they're just plain lying.

Roland · 05-26-2003, 07:48 AM

MrDarwin -

That site is a total hoot. Though I don't honestly know whether to laugh or cry reading it.

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05-23-2003, 02:50 PM	#11
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Is that a spine drawn on that dino? It looks like they drew the spine in a blueish over it, perhaps they found the bones and made the picture? (seeing as you can't very well see bones through its body.)

05-23-2003, 04:06 PM	#12
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	patrick: However, I am pretty sure that Winged-Human-Lions were pretty common in ancient Mesopotamia, and that winged snakes were pretty common in south america at one point. If I'm not mistaken, that's a Babylonian Gate Guard that has the head of a man, the wings and feathers on the forepart of an eagle, the forepart and forefeet of a lion, and the hindquarters and rear feet of a bull or ox, IIRC. Though it seems to have an extra bull leg in there... Compare that to the Assyrian or Akkadian karibu, winged creatures with human faces, the bodies of lions or bulls, and the wings of eagles. They're also associated with the Zodiac, but I think the eagle's been replaced by the scorpion. IIRC, the Zodiac back then (5k years ago; it's changed due to precession) had Aquarius (Man) corresponding to the Winter Solstice, Taurus (bull) to the Vernal Equinox, Leo (lion) to the Summer Solstice, and Scorpio (eagle) corresponding to the Autumn Equinox. One interpretation is that the lion dominates over wild animals, the bull or ox over domestic animals, the eagle over birds and man over creation in general. Note that the Hebrew Cherubim and the Islam el-karrubiyan are both derived from karibu. And not just in name...think of the two cherubim placed at the gates of Eden, and compare that to the two karibu placed at the gates of Babylonian temples. Compare that to Ezekiel 1:10, writing of a vision he had while in Babylon: 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Note that the "symbols" of the four Apostles are Luke (the Bull), Mark (the Lion), John (the Eagle) and Matthew (the Man). Note also that Toltec astronomy divided the world into five �directions� � north, south, east, west and center, the first four ruled by the Bull, Lion, Eagle and Man. Interesting stuff.

05-23-2003, 04:09 PM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	That creature appears to have the head and neck of a serpent/dragon, body of a bull, and almost definitely the tail of a scorpion, another symbolic animal used in such blended creatures. The legs might be a lion's legs, but I can't tell. Another made-up image that blends several creatures; not a dinosaur.

05-23-2003, 07:03 PM	#15
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I said above, in regards to the image Patrick posted: If I'm not mistaken, that's a Babylonian Gate Guard... I looked it up in a Joseph Campbell book and found it's a portal guard from the palace of Ashurnasirpal II at Nimrud, Assyria, 883-859 B.C.E. Made of limestone; height, 11 ft 6 in. I'd also add that, for the Toltec trivia I posted, I haven't been able to verify that info, but in any event it would be a jaguar and not a lion!

05-23-2003, 11:20 PM	#16
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	(And, I swear I recently saw an actual fossil of a mini-plesiosaur, like, 6-9 inches long; the shortest referenced plesiosaur I found on the web is 2 meters; perhaps I saw a baby or something? It was at this guy's house who collects fossils.) [/QUOTE] VERY common -- they are for sale all over the place here in Taiwan. There's a place in China where they are mined and sold by the thousand. I have considered shelling out for one, they are so beautiful.

05-26-2003, 07:02 AM	#19
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	That aboriginal painting is a recent one, and comes from this Answers in Genesis article: Australia�s Aborigines... Did they see dinosaurs? If anybody is representing it as ancient rock art, they're just plain lying.

05-26-2003, 07:48 AM	#20
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	MrDarwin - That site is a total hoot. Though I don't honestly know whether to laugh or cry reading it.

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