ex-preacher

The same way you decide everything else, using reason, observation, and experience. Almost all cultures, philosophies and religions agree that the basic principle of morality is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Although this phrasing and the name "Golden Rule" is associated with Jesus (Matt 7:12), this principle is found in earlier and contemporary cultures.

Before Jesus, the Rabbis formulated it in reverse: "Whatever you do not wish done to you, do not do to others." Variants of this principle can be found in Greek philosophy, the sayings of Confucius, Buddha's teachings, and even Native American religions.

How and why did this principle emerge across so many cultures? Because treating others with respect is the best way to insure our own happiness, the happiness of our families and friends, the progress and stability of our society, and the survival of our species and planet.

A saying I've become fond of recently:

Morality: doing the right thing no matter what you're told.

Religion: doing what you're told no matter what the right thing is.

There are some excellent articles on morality in the absence of God in the library at this site.

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

Blu

Free12Thinker,

Is your argument based on the idea that organized religion's version of God would not exist if we removed all references to organized religion's God?

The Bible is a collection of stories and teachings as well as the Buddhist Pali Canon. My view is that the human species would create new religions if you removed old ones. If you removed references of God, people would just bring them back in.

I believe (based on recently findings) that it isn't just nurture (environment) that has created the phenomenon of religion or the Belief in God. It is a combination of environment and genes. To get rid of religion from the world or any belief in God, would require you to alter the genes of the human species as well as lock them in a cage and shock them every time they exhibited any sign of spirituality. People will invent new religions to replace the old ones unless you did these things to the people of your idealic civilization.

Any thoughts?

Blu

Jayhawker Soule

You've committed a seriously antisocial act. Again, I refer you to the EO Wilson article referenced on the previous page, including ...

Now, let me ask you a couple of questions:

• What moral/ethical system is unique to Christianity?
• What theological foundation is mandated by Confucian ethics?

I suggest that the logic of your position is to deny any moral/ethical equivalency between Christian and non-Christian cultures, or to assert, like Joseph in the Musical, that "any dream will do". The former position is bigotry. The latter simply notes the social function of myth (even for goyim)...

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

free12thinker

My view is that the world would has no reason to create new religions, as religions serve as a set of ideas that follow certain beliefs and standards by which to live. With what we know today, people wouldn't need to start new religions as knowledge would replace such needs. I state this under the belief that religions main purpose was to establish a set of guidelines and beliefs that helped define our civilizations, when they were in their earliest stages. Today, people simply follow religion because it's there. Religion is an institution now, not really to follow or take great respect in, but merely to look at and take great comfort in its possibilities. This is going to sound like a stupid comparison, but it's kind of like our feelings towards public icons. Even as we outgrow them, we will never fully escape their aura. Thus, we grow up finding that we need them less and less, yet it's nice to know they're still hanging around, and we'll never deny their previous greatness (even if they are doing Stuart Little 10: Return of the Mouse).

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

Thor Q. Mada

Religion is a set of behavioral rules, (some of them of an outdated hygienic nature) making it possible for a society to be controllable or prevent it from toppling into anarchy. The God part of those rules is entirely optional.
It was just easier to inspire fear by having a mythical being who knows everything looking over your shoulder.
Religion was and is virtually always hijacked by the existing rulers to reinforce the legitimacy of their rule. (US today).
A large society cannot survive without a code of conduct (religious or not) and a morality through education and experience.
Whether we call this now Confucianism or Catholicism or whatever.

brighid

I think as knowledge increases that religious superstitions will lessen, but I don’t think they will completely die out. The other day I was watching something about the Manson Family Murders and although I was familiar with the case I had never really seen actual footage from the trial or of the other members of the family. It was down right scary how these men and women “worshipped” him and how easily they were lead to believe what they were doing was right – and how HAPPY they were. Scared the shit out of me! Religion equals power and as long as there is a human desire for power I think someone will invent new religions and different interpretations of old religions. There are many unsolved mysteries and our minds are programmed to find patterns and where there are not discernable patterns to create them.

Unfortunately, at this juncture of our evolution knowledge is not available to all people and for those people who the knowledge is available they resist it as if it were some terrible demon. Society has indoctrinated all of us, some of us has simply broken free of those shackles, but that society has so deeply ingrained the idea that a God MUST exist that people are almost incapable of constructing different ideas.

As another poster put it – I am agnostic when it comes to the actual existence of a supernatural being – (not verbatim) and I agree AND I am a strong atheist when it comes to the Christian religion (and religion in general in varying degrees.)

Man created the Gods and perhaps something exists that can be defined at this Creator God, but thus far the evidence is sorely lacking and the modern Gods are terrible, cruel, dictators that should not be worshipped or emulated. Billions of people emulate these Gods and yet they wonder why the world is so screwed up!


B

Jayhawker Soule

I tend to agree. Go to any middle-to-upper class community and drive by their churches/synagogues on Sunday/Saturday and you'll find more than enough evidence of superstition and cognitive disconnect.

AJ113

Hmm. No mention of "desire." If I was to abandon my faith, I would be looking after myself first, with the rest of society not even making last place. Why should I give two hoots about anyone else?

Why should I care about the progress and stability of our society, and the survival of species and planet?

My point here is that without God, morals and principles are defined on an individual basis. I would not need society to tell me how to lead my life, I am capable of making my own decisions.

This could be taken as an ad-nauseam fallacy.

Maybe there are, and maybe in time, I will read some of them, but for now, shall we continue the discussion?

brighid

Reasonable – I live in a town of about 200,000 people and it is predominantly upper class – upper, middle class people. Within a 2 mile radius of my house I have Churches (no Synagogues that I am aware of) that are friggin enormous. And each of these Churches is expanding and a new Roman Catholic Church is going up about 1 mile from my house. Sunday mornings are quiet because every one is in church, but we avoid those areas in between services because traffic has to be directed by the local police!! The majority of people in my community are highly educated and the stay at home parent contingent is also pretty well educated – many with at least a Bachelors and many with a Masters also. Although my community has a large religious contingent I have not yet encountered any fundie type of issues or pressures. It’s a pretty liberal area, even though most people vote Republican. We do have a Unitarian Church but the congregation is small in comparison – only a few thousand people and services tend to be small. One reason is the pastor that is currently there is temporary and he is an absolute bore.

People want religion and for my cursory knowledge in this community I would say religious services are mostly a social apparatus rather than a theological interaction. I think the mid to upper class people have a more liberal opinion (in general) about religion but still go because of the community outlet.

I don’t see religion dieing out anytime soon. I would like to see Humanism take a greater role in our communities … but I am not going to hold my breath.


B

ex-preacher

In this case, let me strongly urge that you keep your faith. I find it odd that so many Christians make this case. They imply, and some even state outright, that if they discovered that God didn't exist they would immediately start raping and pillaging. After my mind forced my emotions to let go of Christianity, I wondered if I might feel some urge to immorality. None at all. I found that I had the same urges as always - to make others happy, because that makes me happy.

Thomas Jefferson put it this way:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blinfolded fear. . . . Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you." (from Jefferson's letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787)

I take this to mean you do care about your own happiness and that of your family. That's a good first step. Most children are born with and taught the value of the happiness of others and the well-being of our society, species, and planet. If you are missing these, you may have a genetic problem or were very poorly taught by your parents and school. If so, there is a high likelihood that your anti-social actions will result in the rest of society putting you either in prison or a mental institution. Even for those with little concern for others, such as yourself, the fear of prison or an institution may motivate you to behave as if you did care about others.

Unless you were raised by wolves and live on a deserted island [are there wolves on deserted islands?] you live in a society which is deeply concerned with how people treat others. Our morals and principles are thus not defined in isolation, but in tandem with our fellow humans.

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ex-preacher: A saying I've become fond of recently:
Morality: doing the right thing no matter what you're told.

Religion: doing what you're told no matter what the right thing is.

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Or it could be taken as an accurate summary of the difference between ethics based on reason and divine commmand theory ethics. One of the article in the library is a piece by super-lawyer Alan Derschowitz arguing that theists cannot truly be moral since their behavior is derived from the commands of a being with the ultimate power to punish or reward them infinitely. Thus, he argues that only atheists can be truly moral - do the right thing regardless of consequences. For a theist, the deeper motivation is always to gain a reward or avoid punishment.

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ex-preacher: There are some excellent articles on morality in the absence of God in the library at this site.
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Certainly, but I have found that discussions can be improved significantly when both (or all) parties educate themselves on the positions of others. In addition to the Dershowitz article, there are some good pieces by Keith Parsons (and others).

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>