Keith

I will readily admit that as hard as I try, I can't say anything meaningful about the process of evolution, or describe it, without doing what I see being done here--attributing purpose to the process.

Keith

Keith

Yes, but you went at least one step further. You concluded that no purpose is involved. Although you could be right, it is also possible that your conclusion is wrong, and in any case, your conclusion doesn't logically follow the sequence you provided.

Keith

MyKell

Keith, you're caught up in the language..

We as intelligent observers can notice and study evolution. For a group of genes in some organism, survival is not their goal or purpose or anything... those which offer a survival advantage happen to do that because the laws of physics dictate their function according to their structure, not because they want to...
We happen to only observe the organisms that survive. The ones that don't, which happen to be the majority, we don't see.

Did you know that 70% of human pregnancies are spontaneously aborted before the date of the subsequent menstrual period. Yes, and most women don't even notice them... Those "fetuses" are genetically incompatible with life...

Starboy

Keith, it is not impossible to explain. TOE explains it. You just don't like the explanation. It boils down to this, unless you have an alternate theory that works just as well or better than TOE then get over it.
Keith, I thought you said that you understand evolution. Evolution is not completely random. This is why different creatures from very different parts of the tree of life can develop very similar organs to respond to similar circumstances. Specific traits among the random variations are naturally selected from any given population in response to the environment.

At the base of it, I think you are confusing random with no purpose. A tree falling over because a tornado blew it over is not random. It may serve no purpose, but it is not random. There is a cause and effect. Many on this thread have been trying to get this through you thick skull, purpose and random are not the same thing. It is possible for them to coexist. Back in the old days before surface mount became the norm in electronics, they used to make resistors randomly. They would mix up a batch of resist and squirt out a bunch of resistors, bake them then sort them by their value and then label and package them. There are countless examples of how a random process can meet a purpose.

The problem you have is not showing that the history of life does not have random outcomes. Your problem is demonstrating that whatever the mechanism, that it has a purpose. Now Keith, surely you must realize that this is a fool’s errand. You are trying to ascertain the purpose of something that we are still trying to figure out. We see no evidence that there was a creator and there is no clear evidence that there is a purpose. You have got to guess at the nature and goals of a creature for which absolutely nothing is known, unless of course you are one of those nuts that think they have some special relationship with this creature or that holy writings reveal the nature and purpose of the being. But if you are one of those nuts, what do you care what science has to say about anything.

Starboy

Keith

Do eyes and ears have any purpose?

Keith

Starboy

Don't you know?

James Hamlin

I believe the more experienced posters have responded better, but I simply cannot hold my tongue. (If I say anything that seems ad-hominem at all... well, too bad)

I am astonished that you cannot understand natural selection, Keith. It is actually a very logical reasonable process which makes perfectly good sense without an intelligent being behind the curtains.

Keith:
There is no "who," buddy. Let me try to describe natural selection for you. (just microevolution in this case)

A group of organisms, say dodos, have genetic material which describe proteins which ultimately describe their traits. Enviromental pressures change, say it rains a lot more in that region, and dodos can't handle it and begin to die of pnemonia. But once in a while a dodo is born with genetic material allowing for a little umbrella on its head. Perhaps it was code that has been in the gene pool for centuries but didn't have any bearing on survival (neutral??), whatever, but the dodos with the umbrellas are the only ones that survive long enough to have sex and reproduce, passing on the umbrella gene. The umbrella gene becomes more and more common, growing a population which shares the umbrella gene. The dodos without the umbrella gene do not reproduce and their genomes are swept from the population. The altered population of dodos survive (for now).

Now I think I explained natural selection without using the word selection, which you seem to misinterpret as an action done by a detached intelligence. Hope you can understand that one.

Looking back on the post, I see I didn't attack you. Good for me.

Principia

What doesn't have a purpose?

Keith

No, I'm observing clear and obvious purpose and saying that it isn't due to a process that has no purpose. Even most six year-olds can tell you what an eye or ear is for. It is nonsense to say that eyes and ears "just happened" without a purpose.

Keith

Keith

My point, exactly!

Keith