Kassiana

FYI Seebs, studies of African Gray parrots have revealed a high level of intelligence. African Grays can worry, if they fall in their cages, e.g., that they might fall again. They can ask, once they've learned enough of any human language to do so and human concepts, what a new color is called and recognize it again upon having seen it once before. Look up Dr. Irene Pepperberg and her studies of Alex the African Gray. It might well surprise you.

kwigibo

thanks, i would have mentioned that, but i didn't want to be picky

Martin Gibbs

[sniffle][sniffle][sob]

of COURsE pets go to heaven...I mean, I they can't just DIE forever...I HAVE to see blackie again, I HAVE to, I HAVE to...it's not fair....

[sniffle]


"he used.....sarcasm"

tommyc

Do retards go to heaven?

I reckon you could find some retards who had less intelligence than a parrot. Does that mean they have less of a soul? I can imagine that certainly some might not have any concept of self-awareness, an often cited attribute of a "spiritual" creature.

Bree

tommyc -

Call me a stupid, sensitive, PC liberal - but could you please not go around calling people retards? My uncle is handicapped this way - and the word "retard" is just an ugly name people throw around.

It's like calling someone a "fag" - yes, it's true, they are homosexual, but do you really have to use that word?!

Marduk

it would seem so:

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:19-21)


Genesis 1:21
And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:20-22)


Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:23-25)


Genesis 1:30
and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so.
(Whole Chapter: Genesis 1 In context: Genesis 1:29-31)

ashibaka

So, if Genesis is correct, smallpox does have a soul? It pleases me to think that smallpox cells are burning in Hell right now. This raises a problem, though; what about extremophiles that enjoy really hot weather? How would Hell torture them?

Gringo

Adam became a living soul after God breathed the breath of life in his nostrils. His spirit was the breath of life (spirit) God gave him in order to live. Spirit + Body ----> Soul

As you poined out, animals are called souls in the Bible too. But that's not to say they have they have disembodies selves encapsulated by their bodies. When God flooded the world, he said everything that had the breah of life in its nostrils, cattle and every creeping thing perished. I believe it is Ecclesiastes that says that if God were to gather up all his spirit, all flesh would die. I believe the Seventh Day Adventists, which view the soul this way, are closer on target then most Christian denominations as to how the Bible describes a soul.

excreationist

Do fertilized human eggs have souls though? They are made up of a human egg and a human sperm cell - which are alive (the "spirit" bit) but I'm not sure if they have a "body". They have a potential body though... but many fertilized eggs would die before they are born as a baby because the DNA is too corrupted (so they had no potential of becoming a fully grown human).

lpetrich

To be picky, smallpox is not even cellular -- it's some DNA wrapped in some protein that just sits there unless it gets itself inside of some suitable cell.

There is also the question of how well-defined organismal identity is. Some plants can reproduce by sprouting new stems from roots or runners sent outward; Is it each stem (ramet) or each multistem clone (genet) that has a soul? And among fungi, a single clone can be spread over large areas, with each tiny bit potentially self-sufficient. Does such a giant fungus have one soul or some huge number of souls?

Here's a nice story about the <a href="http://www.herb.lsa.umich.edu/FAQ/FAQ4.htm" target="_blank">Humongous Fungus in Michigan</a>. And a <a href="http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/apr2002.html" target="_blank">more detailed one</a>.

Edited to add: let's not forget about coral polyps -- many of them are clones of other polyps. Does each polyp have a soul or each clone of polyps?

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>