Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spacedOut · 07-31-2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whispers
YOU are given a choice, and your lifes choices will be confirmed to you when life ends.

As long as we're given a choice, I will choose Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 (after all, it's all the infallable Word of God, right?)

"Anyone who is among the living has hope-even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun- all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."

Pretty good words to live by IMHO (except for that part about being clothed in white - kind of makes me look fat). Some people may consider these verses a little depressing, but I've found nothing (in the Bible anyway) that speaks more truth - Get out and enjoy life while you have it!!!

BTW, I can't help but think of this verse when I see my dog snoozing spread-eagle in the grass on a pleasant sunny afternoon - surely it is better to be a live dog than a dead lion!

SignOfTheCross · 07-31-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by braces_for_impact
And this is what makes you such a good Christian.

You related to Magus55?

No.

Peace,
SOTC

Mageth · 07-31-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Well I wouldn't want to spend eternity with someone who rejected me even after I died for them. Without the Cross, hell would be unjust, but then again, there's the Cross.

Peace,
SOTC

Well, in the first place, I haven't "rejected" the Gospel. Rather, I find it mythical, an empty promise of a glorious afterlife (with the obligatory threat of hell to seal the deal). In other words, there's nothing for me to reject.

And once again, such a bitter message to be closed with "Peace".

"You're going to hell, and I have no problem with that.

Peace,
SOTC"

If you're going to continue with posts that condemn people to hell, and apparently are in approval of that, please leave off the "Peace" bit. I find it rather offensive, and it apparently doesn't reflect your true wishes for your audience anyway.

Yangja Isuko · 07-31-2003, 10:12 AM

did the man push me into the water? if so the analogy applies.

themistocles · 07-31-2003, 10:27 AM

I've always wondered why a loving god requires threats of eternal damnation against his "own image" to be believed in. Well, first off, why does god require himself to be believed. What does god gain by people believing in him? What does god lose by people not believing in him?

Mister Impossible · 07-31-2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

id the man push me into the water? if so the analogy applies

It'd be an even closer analogy if he pushed you in the water then held your head under while all his cronies stood around cheering.

SignOfTheCross · 07-31-2003, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
[B]Well, in the first place, I haven't "rejected" the Gospel. Rather, I find it mythical, an empty promise of a glorious afterlife (with the obligatory threat of hell to seal the deal). In other words, there's nothing for me to reject.

Reject - to refuse to accept, submit to, believe, or make use of.

You refuse to accept the Gospel, you reject it.

Quote:

And once again, such a bitter message to be closed with "Peace"

"You're going to hell, and I have no problem with that.

Peace,
SOTC".

It wasn't intended to be bitter, rather I have no problem with the concept of hell for those who reject Him. No, the idea of hell isn't a nice one, and no, I don't believe you are going to hell, that is up to God.

Quote:

If you're going to continue with posts that condemn people to hell, and apparently are in approval of that, please leave off the "Peace" bit. I find it rather offensive, and it apparently doesn't reflect your true wishes for your audience anyway.

You took what I said out of context.

Peace,
SOTC

Cross Examiner · 07-31-2003, 10:48 AM

It is no accident that the Bible speaks to the once and, with great forsight, future skeptic recorded in John 20:24-30:

'Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.'

Now, I hesitate to take an analogy from the minds of George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, but you've seen "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?" If so, you'll then remember that on the third and final trial, the Path of God, Indiana Jones could not see the bridge that he was supposed to cross but there had to be one in order to cross at all. Indiana could not see it, but the clock was ticking away while his father was dying to receive the Living Water from the Cup of Christ, the Grail, so Indiana, realizing the urgency, believed that the bridge would be there when he stepped. You know the rest. Granted, for the hardened empricist, it is indeed a leap from the Lion's Head to trust that the Bible speaks correctly on who Jesus was and what Jesus said and did. Millions of Christians have taken that leap. You can have confidence to trust that there is good reason to believe and go in headlong into the Gospels with a friendly eye. Read it again with a trusting eye rather than the doubting eye. For many, this will be the difference between living and dying.

I acknowledge, though, that many will not and perhaps some cannot. Only God knows why one cannot though I know that the one who cannot can if he wants to find the truth in Christ, if he takes the advice of the Prophet Jeremiah regarding God: "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)" Note that "I sought Him and didn't find Him and am now done seeking" is not the same as "seek Me with all your heart", which is a continuous process. Continuously seek? As stated by another in this thread, if the Bible is true, it is that important. Can't assume the Bible is true? Can't quiet the doubt and critical analysis from Doherty (or whomever) in your head? Try it anyway, read again, pray sincerely to God, assume without doubt that He'll hear and care, you stand to have a revelation. Continue to seek after the evidence for Christianity as though your very life depended upon it. It's there.

I believe that special blessing upon those who trust what their eyes have not seen is an acknowledgement from Jesus' own mouth that it will often take a leap from the Lion's Head for a skeptic like me to come into this trusting relationship I now know so well. Take advice from the many who've crossed the "invisible bridge." It's there. And when you cross in faith, it's faith validated.

Regards,
BGiC

BTW, I understand that you've heard this before but you'll hear again and again because God does care to speak with you, has not forgotten you and does communicate through the faith of one man to the doubt of another.

AmbiguousUbiquity · 07-31-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

You are drowning in a river, and a man walking his dog offers you his hand. You refuse. The offer remains none-the-less and during the next few hours as you grow weaker, you either ignore or deny the existence of the hand. Maybe you think that if you take the hand, nothing will happen or that the stranger will pulll his hand away at the last moment leaving you to drown. Either way, you will not, cannot or do not accept the hand. As a result, you drown. If you complain that drowning is a punishment of not taking the hand, are you not missing the point. Surely drowning is a result of a choice that YOU made. YOU said I don�t believe, or I don�t want or don�t need the hand

I don't see any relevance in this analogy, personally. Of COURSE I would try to fight for my life, but that is a reality. It's human nature to have a will to live in dire situations, for the most part. Besides, god, to me, is not a corporeal object. The man, live and in the flesh, holding out his hand, is what is real. If you go by this analogy, and you're a true, good Christian, why would you acept help anyway? Wouldn't it have been god's will that you fall in the river and drown?

emotional · 07-31-2003, 11:03 AM

BGiC,

I trust God. I have faith in God. I trust and have faith that God will not put me in hell for failing to believe in Jesus. I trust and have faith that He is kinder than that, and that He judges people according to their actions towards other people, and not according to an arbitrary article of faith.

Christianity says I shall burn in hell for not being a Christian. Islam says I shall burn in hell for not being a Muslim. I reject both Christianity and Islam and choose to trust instead in God. To trust that He is not a God of bribe and blackmail. Christians and Muslims think much lowlier of God than I do.

07-31-2003, 10:48 AM	#18
Cross Examiner Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 1,881	From of the Lion's Head It is no accident that the Bible speaks to the once and, with great forsight, future skeptic recorded in John 20:24-30: 'Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' Now, I hesitate to take an analogy from the minds of George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, but you've seen "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?" If so, you'll then remember that on the third and final trial, the Path of God, Indiana Jones could not see the bridge that he was supposed to cross but there had to be one in order to cross at all. Indiana could not see it, but the clock was ticking away while his father was dying to receive the Living Water from the Cup of Christ, the Grail, so Indiana, realizing the urgency, believed that the bridge would be there when he stepped. You know the rest. Granted, for the hardened empricist, it is indeed a leap from the Lion's Head to trust that the Bible speaks correctly on who Jesus was and what Jesus said and did. Millions of Christians have taken that leap. You can have confidence to trust that there is good reason to believe and go in headlong into the Gospels with a friendly eye. Read it again with a trusting eye rather than the doubting eye. For many, this will be the difference between living and dying. I acknowledge, though, that many will not and perhaps some cannot. Only God knows why one cannot though I know that the one who cannot can if he wants to find the truth in Christ, if he takes the advice of the Prophet Jeremiah regarding God: "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)" Note that "I sought Him and didn't find Him and am now done seeking" is not the same as "seek Me with all your heart", which is a continuous process. Continuously seek? As stated by another in this thread, if the Bible is true, it is that important. Can't assume the Bible is true? Can't quiet the doubt and critical analysis from Doherty (or whomever) in your head? Try it anyway, read again, pray sincerely to God, assume without doubt that He'll hear and care, you stand to have a revelation. Continue to seek after the evidence for Christianity as though your very life depended upon it. It's there. I believe that special blessing upon those who trust what their eyes have not seen is an acknowledgement from Jesus' own mouth that it will often take a leap from the Lion's Head for a skeptic like me to come into this trusting relationship I now know so well. Take advice from the many who've crossed the "invisible bridge." It's there. And when you cross in faith, it's faith validated. Regards, BGiC BTW, I understand that you've heard this before but you'll hear again and again because God does care to speak with you, has not forgotten you and does communicate through the faith of one man to the doubt of another.

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07-31-2003, 10:12 AM	#14
Yangja Isuko Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: amsterdam Posts: 327	did the man push me into the water? if so the analogy applies.

07-31-2003, 10:27 AM	#15
themistocles Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: las vegas, nevada Posts: 670	I've always wondered why a loving god requires threats of eternal damnation against his "own image" to be believed in. Well, first off, why does god require himself to be believed. What does god gain by people believing in him? What does god lose by people not believing in him?

07-31-2003, 11:03 AM	#20
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	BGiC, I trust God. I have faith in God. I trust and have faith that God will not put me in hell for failing to believe in Jesus. I trust and have faith that He is kinder than that, and that He judges people according to their actions towards other people, and not according to an arbitrary article of faith. Christianity says I shall burn in hell for not being a Christian. Islam says I shall burn in hell for not being a Muslim. I reject both Christianity and Islam and choose to trust instead in God. To trust that He is not a God of bribe and blackmail. Christians and Muslims think much lowlier of God than I do.

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