Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HoosierGuy28 · 10-21-2002, 08:47 AM

Mageth,

I personally do not see any contradiction.

Quote:

No, the Sabbath is the Jewish Holy Day established in the Law and is always on Saturday. The Day of Preparation is Friday, when the Jews make ready for the Sabbath (which starts at sundown Friday).

Redefining words with known, obvious meanings is not a good way to get around a contradiction.

I'm sure if you look it up in the dictionary you will see that "sabbath" can refer to a holy day of rest. I personally looked it up a few minutes ago and it in no way suggested that the only time a sabbath occurs is on a Saturday.

Quote:

Referring to OT examples in no way gets around the fact that you can't squeeze three days and three nights out of < 40 hours.

I used the scripture from the OT as an example of a similar use of 3 days/nights, within Hebrew writings, in which it was used in a figure of speech instead of referring to literal 24 hour days. Nowhere in that scripture does it mention a certain number of hours or make a claim of full days. I will give an example of a possible scenario, and hopefully this will help you understand.

Friday - Buried during the day (1 day) and spent the night there. (1 night)

Saturday - Spent all day and night there (2 days and 2 nights)

Sunday - Spent all day there (3 days) Arose during the night (3 nights)

Just like if you told a friend you were going to be working all day tomorrow. Does that mean you will necessarily be working from the time the sunrises to the time the sunsets? Of course not. It can be easily used as a figure of speech.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-21-2002, 09:00 AM

Mageth,

I can tell you are intending to find fault in what I write. I will assure you that my views on things are pretty sound, and I'm really not here to get into long strung out debates with people. If you wish to find fault in me, I'm sure you will find it.

Quote:

On the previous page, you said:

Now personally, I have no doubt in my mind about the existence of God. I've stopped questioning whether God exists, and I've started building on that knowledge that God does in fact exist.

But on this page, you say:

Also, I do keep [up] on a lot of the criticism that the Bible/Christians receive. In fact, I wouldn't dare have posted in this forum if I was not prepared to deal with criticism of God, the Bible, and myself.

How can you honestly deal with criticism of God and the Bible if you no longer question the existence of God? It would seem to me that to honeslty evaluate a criticism of God and/or the Bible you would have to be willing to question his very existence.

I do not need to question the existence of God to be informed of the criticisms being used by people and I am willing to be criticized by others for my beliefs. I do not have to agree or disagree with you to observe any criticism you might have towards me or my beliefs.

If someone told you that the shirt you wore yesterday was blue and you know from personal experience that it was red, would you have to be willing to question your knowledge pertaining to the color of your shirt yesterday it order to listen to their criticism? Of course not!

Respectfully,

Joel

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: HoosierGuy28 ]</p>

sakrilege · 10-21-2002, 09:17 AM

Joel,

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
<strong>
Second view: The 3 days and nights are a figure of speech meaning any part of 3 days and 3 nights, which is consistent with other Hebrew writings. For example,

Esther 4:16
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which [is] not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

</strong>

I can agree that to say '3 days' can encompass less than 72 hours, say from Friday morning until Sunday afternoon. But I cannot agree that three days, night or day is the same as saying 3 days and 3 nights. These are different concepts.

Susan

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: sakrilege ]</p>

Mageth · 10-21-2002, 09:20 AM

Friday - Buried during the day (1 day) and spent the night there. (1 night)

Saturday - Spent all day and night there (2 days and 2 nights)

Sunday - Spent all day there (3 days) Arose during the night (3 nights)

He supposedly arose on Sunday morning, before dawn. That's only two nights.

From Matthew:

28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week [to the Jews, Sunday], came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. [the following verses describe them finding no body there]

So he was buried on the day of preparation (the day before the sabbath), stayed in the grave through the sabbath [one day], and rose before the end of the sabbath (dawn). Note that this chronology doesn't depend on what day of the week the sabbath is on.

There's only two days and two nights there.

Mageth · 10-21-2002, 09:34 AM

I can tell you are intending to find fault in what I write. I will assure you that my views on things are pretty sound, and I'm really not here to get into long strung out debates with people. If you wish to find fault in me, I'm sure you will find it.

I'm not out to find fault in you. You seem to be an agreeable sort. I do intend on "finding fault" in what you write, your beliefs and opinions. That's what goes on around here - people post arguments, others criticize them (it's the fun of it, really).

I do not need to question the existence of God to be informed of the criticisms being used by people and I am willing to be criticized by others for my beliefs. I do not have to agree or disagree with you to observe any criticism you might have towards me or my beliefs.

I agree that you don't have to agree or disagree with me; in fact, I've never said that you do. What I am saying is that one can't honestly consider criticisms of your beliefs if one is not willing to allow those beliefs to be challenged, to honestly ask oneself, when confronted with counterarguments, "Am I right, and if so, why?"

I believe that to honestly question one's beliefs is the best way to hone and strengthen one's beliefs.

If someone told you that the shirt you wore yesterday was blue and you know from personal experience that it was red, would you have to be willing to question your knowledge pertaining to the color of your shirt yesterday it order to listen to their criticism? Of course not!

It's not a very good analogy; god is not in the same category as a shirt. One's an "invisible", intangible concept and the other's a physical object, after all. However, if someone presents a good argument (and perhaps evidence) that the shirt was blue, I'd be a fool not to question my "personal experience", and to seek to find the truth (looking in the laundry basket, for example).

Kosh · 10-21-2002, 11:02 AM

Still waiting for you to address the big fish question, Joel.

Perchance · 10-21-2002, 11:22 AM

Hi Joel

My question. I know that you have a lot of replies and questions to go through, so take your time.

Do you believe that the world would be better off if everyone became a Christian?

There.

Thanks for your answer in advance.

-Perchance.

The Naked Mage · 10-21-2002, 12:52 PM

Waiting on the "Jesus in Hell" answer, Joel.

Veil of Fire · 10-21-2002, 01:44 PM

My roommate just said that you can count the sky going pitch black at the moment of Jesus's death as a night, and therefore you have three nights.

I think he's smoking something, myself, but I can't refute it off the top of my head.

Mageth · 10-21-2002, 01:51 PM

My roommate just said that you can count the sky going pitch black at the moment of Jesus's death as a night, and therefore you have three nights.

He's smoking something, all right.

The sky going black is mixed in with earthquakes, temple curtains being rent in twain, and dead men rising from their graves and wondering all over Jerusalem. Such amazing events that are not recorded outside the bible!

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10-21-2002, 09:20 AM	#54
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Friday - Buried during the day (1 day) and spent the night there. (1 night) Saturday - Spent all day and night there (2 days and 2 nights) Sunday - Spent all day there (3 days) Arose during the night (3 nights) He supposedly arose on Sunday morning, before dawn. That's only two nights. From Matthew: 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week [to the Jews, Sunday], came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. [the following verses describe them finding no body there] So he was buried on the day of preparation (the day before the sabbath), stayed in the grave through the sabbath [one day], and rose before the end of the sabbath (dawn). Note that this chronology doesn't depend on what day of the week the sabbath is on. There's only two days and two nights there.

10-21-2002, 09:34 AM	#55
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I can tell you are intending to find fault in what I write. I will assure you that my views on things are pretty sound, and I'm really not here to get into long strung out debates with people. If you wish to find fault in me, I'm sure you will find it. I'm not out to find fault in you. You seem to be an agreeable sort. I do intend on "finding fault" in what you write, your beliefs and opinions. That's what goes on around here - people post arguments, others criticize them (it's the fun of it, really). I do not need to question the existence of God to be informed of the criticisms being used by people and I am willing to be criticized by others for my beliefs. I do not have to agree or disagree with you to observe any criticism you might have towards me or my beliefs. I agree that you don't have to agree or disagree with me; in fact, I've never said that you do. What I am saying is that one can't honestly consider criticisms of your beliefs if one is not willing to allow those beliefs to be challenged, to honestly ask oneself, when confronted with counterarguments, "Am I right, and if so, why?" I believe that to honestly question one's beliefs is the best way to hone and strengthen one's beliefs. If someone told you that the shirt you wore yesterday was blue and you know from personal experience that it was red, would you have to be willing to question your knowledge pertaining to the color of your shirt yesterday it order to listen to their criticism? Of course not! It's not a very good analogy; god is not in the same category as a shirt. One's an "invisible", intangible concept and the other's a physical object, after all. However, if someone presents a good argument (and perhaps evidence) that the shirt was blue, I'd be a fool not to question my "personal experience", and to seek to find the truth (looking in the laundry basket, for example).

10-21-2002, 11:02 AM	#56
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Still waiting for you to address the big fish question, Joel.

10-21-2002, 11:22 AM	#57
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Hi Joel My question. I know that you have a lot of replies and questions to go through, so take your time. Do you believe that the world would be better off if everyone became a Christian? There. Thanks for your answer in advance. -Perchance.

10-21-2002, 12:52 PM	#58
The Naked Mage Veteran Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Execution State, USA Posts: 5,031	Waiting on the "Jesus in Hell" answer, Joel.

10-21-2002, 01:44 PM	#59
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	My roommate just said that you can count the sky going pitch black at the moment of Jesus's death as a night, and therefore you have three nights. I think he's smoking something, myself, but I can't refute it off the top of my head.

10-21-2002, 01:51 PM	#60
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	My roommate just said that you can count the sky going pitch black at the moment of Jesus's death as a night, and therefore you have three nights. He's smoking something, all right. The sky going black is mixed in with earthquakes, temple curtains being rent in twain, and dead men rising from their graves and wondering all over Jerusalem. Such amazing events that are not recorded outside the bible!

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