Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 01-05-2002, 03:26 PM

RyanS2, no doubt many Hindus accept christ as another avatar of Vishnu. but there were no three wise men to give him gifts. None of the stories about Krishna matches with Christ legends.

Coleman Smith · 01-05-2002, 03:29 PM

Epitome said, "The logic the lower caste Indians see in Christianity is that Hinduism brings poverty and stagnation while Christianity opens the doors to a country with people who are equal and help one another."

Coleman replies:

If you want to see a caste system created by our white Anglo-Saxon protestant forebears take the interstate west of Hobbs, Mew Mexico in to what is referred to as Navaho Land.

The Native Americans there, and else where,understand what a caste system and tell us all about ethnic cleansing.

It seems that the Christians traded bibles and syphilis for their land.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Coleman Smith
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The assertion that the universe is surrounded in grape jelly is more credible than the assertion that we are the immortal pets of some deity.

hinduwoman · 01-05-2002, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:


Sorry to repeat this but both that last statement and the title of this thread is untrue. Considering that Hindus are burning Christian churches, beating and killing Christian Indians, we must have persuaded a few.
Perhaps these things are beneath hinduwoman's notice?

They are not beneath my notice. But you are ignoring this point: for over two hundred years missionaries are madly trying to convert hindus and they had more money and power at their disposal than the Brahmins. But the vast majority remains solidly hindus, and that includes lower castes. It is truly very few you have persuaded, and even then many came along hoping to share in the colonial authroties' prosperity.

lpetrich · 01-05-2002, 06:20 PM

First off, i think that FarSeeker is trying to pose as a vicarious victim ("Look how much my fellow Xtians have suffered!", he wails).

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
RyanS2, no doubt many Hindus accept christ as another avatar of Vishnu. but there were no three wise men to give him gifts. None of the stories about Krishna matches with Christ legends.

There are some similarities, but these are mainly mythic-hero similarities, such as being the offspring or the manifestation of some deity [the Christian God, Vishnu], and there being some wicked king [Herod, Kamsa] who tried to kill him when he was a baby.

Coming up is a composite mythic-hero biography; Hinduwoman, would you be willing to score Krishna on how well he fits?

(1) The hero's mother is a royal virgin, while
(2) his father is a king, and
(3) the father is related to the mother.
(4) The hero's conception is unusual or miraculous; hence
(5) he is reputed to be a son of a god.
(6) Evil forces attempt to kill the infant or boy hero, but
(7) he is spirited away to safety and
(8) reared by foster parents in a foreign land. Besides this,
(9) we learn no details of his childhood until
(10) he journeys to his future kingdom, where
(11) he triumphs over the reigning king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, and
(12) marries a princess, often his predecessor's daughter, and
(13) becomes king himself.
(14) For a while he reigns uneventfully,
(15) promulgating laws. But
(16) he later loses favor with his subjects or with the gods and
(17) is driven from the throne and the city and
(18) meets with a mysterious death,
(19) often atop a hill.
(20) If he has children, they do not succeed him.
(21) His body is not buried, yet
(22) he has one or more holy sepulchers.

According to Raglan and Dundes,

Oedipus: 21
Theseus: 20
Moses: 20
Jesus Christ: 19
King Arthur: 19
Dionysus: 19
Romulus: 18
Hercules: 17
Bellerophon: 16
Gilgamesh: 15
Jason: 15
Robin Hood: 13

Among well-known real people, Alexander the Great has this high score: 7

I'll score Jesus Christ:

1. 0.5 - Mary is a virgin, of course, but she has no pedigree, except if one accepts the apologetic that Luke's genealogy goes through Mary - Luke traces JC to King David

2. 0.5 - Joseph, according to Matthew, is descended from King David.

3. 0.5 - implied by the Luke apologetic above.

4. 1 - Need I say more?

5. 1 - He is not only the Son of God, but the Second Person in the Christian Trinity (either God or 1/3 of God).

6. 1 - King Herod tries to kill him by killing lots of baby boys.

7. 1 - His parents flee to Egypt

8. 0 - He is raised by his "real" parents.

9. 0.5 - There's a story of his precocious learning, but that's about it.

10. 1 - He returns to Galilee.

11. 1 - He resists the Devil's temptations, such as rule of all the kingdoms of the world.

12. 0.5 - He's single in the NT, but a noncanonical Gospel pictures him and Mary Magdalene as having a close relationship, in agreement with many later speculations.

13. 1 - He becomes a famous prophet.

14. 1 - Correct.

15. 1 - His teachings may be considered laws.

16. 1 - He gets put on trial by the authorities and a lynch mob wants him dead.

17. 1 - The authorities find him guilty of blasphemy.

18. 1 - His crucifixion.

19. 1 - That's where his cross was.

20. 1 - He has no appointed successors.

21. 1 - He rose from the dead and then ascended to heaven.

22. 1 - He had resided in one before rising from the dead.

My score is 18.5, which is not much different from AD's score.

Excellent URL: <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/price_20_1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/price_20_1.htm</a>

Albert Cipriani · 01-07-2002, 10:04 AM

Dear Ipetrich,
Thanks for posting the composite mythic-hero biography listing. It's fascinating.

No doubt, the historical Jesus, religious feast days, and even Divinely instituted sacraments share much in common with pagan archetypes. This to me is profoundly poetic. It makes me ruminate on the possibility that God instilled a collective consciousness in us in the same way He has instilled instinct in chickens for raising their chicks.

Question. In your mind, does you mythic-hero biography in any way argue against the veracity of the historical Jesus being God? I wonder if you are lunging at an illogical conclusion here. It could be stated thusly:

1) Non-historic fables share many stereotypical details.
2) Ergo an historic story that shares these stereotypical details must therefore be a fable.
-- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Albert Cipriani ]

theophilus · 01-07-2002, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Probably doesnot belong here, but Christians hit this forum often.

I read a book about colonial missionaries' debate with hindu pundits. What impressed me most was that many hindus couldnot grasp the logic of Christianity and oddly enough many criticisms actually parallel atheist ones.
1. A god who could punish mankind for the sins of Adam and Eve is cruel.
2. How do they know that theirs is the only path, since hindus too have holy scriptures to tell them about the gods?
3. substitute-sacrifice is too absurd.
4. If idol worship is bad, then why are the missionaries always clutching the crucifix? the missionaries' explanation that crucifix is not an idol failed to cut any ice, since they behave similalry and get upset if it is broken.

I mean, these hindus were theists. They were ready to swallow practically anything about religion. But Christinaity could not persuade even them.
I should have thought this would have been a wakeup call for Christians to produce a better set of arguements, but they are still spouting the same nonsense today.

This is, of course, merely an elaborate ad hominem argument. It proves nothing about the truth or falsity of Christianity.
The fault could as easily lie with the Hindus as with Christianity.

Apikorus · 01-07-2002, 10:54 AM

Albert, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well...

The fact that Jesus fits so well many of the attributes of the legendary hero does not in and of itself falsify the New Testament. But it does contextualize the discussion of the NT's putative veracity.

Look, there is a pathology for crazy street prophets also:

often bedraggled and wearing tattered dirty clothing
speaking loudly
proclaiming imminent disaster
often with a sandwichboard containing written proclamation
rambling incoherently
talking to self
clinically schizophrenic
homeless
poor personal hygiene readily apparent

Now just because an individual satisfies most or all of these criteria, it does not de facto mean that he is not authentically a prophet.

lpetrich · 01-07-2002, 01:03 PM

True, fitting the Mythic-Hero mold does not mean that Jesus Christ had never existed; however, it does suggest that acounts of a historical JC, if any, are buried within a lot of mythology. It is worth noting that several of the Mythic-Hero elements of JC's life are implausibilities, such as his genealogies, his virgin birth, his temptation, and his trial, execution, and resurrection; these stories would have gotten added at least in part because they make him seem like a Mythic Hero.

And Apikorus's description of street prophets reminds me of what my mother's mother would do whenever her medications wore off: she would rant and rave in full public view about how the Commies were out to get her.

And to use his example of street prophets, one or two of them could be real, but how would one be able to tell?

Albert Cipriani · 01-07-2002, 01:07 PM

Dear Apikorus,
So you introduce a new word "contextualize." This is smoke where I sought clarity.

A more gutsy person would say yes, or no. You seek the last refuge of scoundrels via the lexicon of weasel words. Disgusted, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Albert Cipriani · 01-07-2002, 01:36 PM

Dear Ipetrich,
You earn two points for honesty. You say that since the story of Jesus fits the pre-cast mold of the Mythic-Hero, it contains "a lot of mythology."

Did it ever occur to you why there are no myths about atheists? How about myths about skeptical people who only believed what was proved to them?

The reason such myths do not exist is not because such people do not exist but because such people do not thrill us. Conversely, the reason theistic myths do exist is not because God does not exist, but because even obvious fabrications about something as true as God thrills us. Why is that?

If atheism is true, why does it not excite us enough to fabricate even a single myth? If theism is untrue, why has it excited us enough to fabricate myths in every language on earth?

Could it be that mankind doesn’t find the truth exciting? No. I think it more likely that mankind prefers to lie about the Truth (Theism) than to tell the truth about a lie (atheism). Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

01-07-2002, 10:04 AM	#55
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	Dear Ipetrich, Thanks for posting the composite mythic-hero biography listing. It's fascinating. No doubt, the historical Jesus, religious feast days, and even Divinely instituted sacraments share much in common with pagan archetypes. This to me is profoundly poetic. It makes me ruminate on the possibility that God instilled a collective consciousness in us in the same way He has instilled instinct in chickens for raising their chicks. Question. In your mind, does you mythic-hero biography in any way argue against the veracity of the historical Jesus being God? I wonder if you are lunging at an illogical conclusion here. It could be stated thusly: 1) Non-historic fables share many stereotypical details. 2) Ergo an historic story that shares these stereotypical details must therefore be a fable. -- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic [ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Albert Cipriani ]</p>

01-07-2002, 10:54 AM	#57
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	Albert, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well... The fact that Jesus fits so well many of the attributes of the legendary hero does not in and of itself falsify the New Testament. But it does contextualize the discussion of the NT's putative veracity. Look, there is a pathology for crazy street prophets also: often bedraggled and wearing tattered dirty clothing speaking loudly proclaiming imminent disaster often with a sandwichboard containing written proclamation rambling incoherently talking to self clinically schizophrenic homeless poor personal hygiene readily apparent Now just because an individual satisfies most or all of these criteria, it does not de facto mean that he is not authentically a prophet.

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01-05-2002, 03:26 PM	#51
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	RyanS2, no doubt many Hindus accept christ as another avatar of Vishnu. but there were no three wise men to give him gifts. None of the stories about Krishna matches with Christ legends.

01-05-2002, 03:29 PM	#52
Coleman Smith Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: In real time. Posts: 789	Epitome said, "The logic the lower caste Indians see in Christianity is that Hinduism brings poverty and stagnation while Christianity opens the doors to a country with people who are equal and help one another." Coleman replies: If you want to see a caste system created by our white Anglo-Saxon protestant forebears take the interstate west of Hobbs, Mew Mexico in to what is referred to as Navaho Land. The Native Americans there, and else where,understand what a caste system and tell us all about ethnic cleansing. It seems that the Christians traded bibles and syphilis for their land. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Coleman Smith +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The assertion that the universe is surrounded in grape jelly is more credible than the assertion that we are the immortal pets of some deity.

01-07-2002, 01:03 PM	#58
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	True, fitting the Mythic-Hero mold does not mean that Jesus Christ had never existed; however, it does suggest that acounts of a historical JC, if any, are buried within a lot of mythology. It is worth noting that several of the Mythic-Hero elements of JC's life are implausibilities, such as his genealogies, his virgin birth, his temptation, and his trial, execution, and resurrection; these stories would have gotten added at least in part because they make him seem like a Mythic Hero. And Apikorus's description of street prophets reminds me of what my mother's mother would do whenever her medications wore off: she would rant and rave in full public view about how the Commies were out to get her. And to use his example of street prophets, one or two of them could be real, but how would one be able to tell?

01-07-2002, 01:07 PM	#59
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	Dear Apikorus, So you introduce a new word "contextualize." This is smoke where I sought clarity. A more gutsy person would say yes, or no. You seek the last refuge of scoundrels via the lexicon of weasel words. Disgusted, Albert the Traditional Catholic

01-07-2002, 01:36 PM	#60
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	Dear Ipetrich, You earn two points for honesty. You say that since the story of Jesus fits the pre-cast mold of the Mythic-Hero, it contains "a lot of mythology." Did it ever occur to you why there are no myths about atheists? How about myths about skeptical people who only believed what was proved to them? The reason such myths do not exist is not because such people do not exist but because such people do not thrill us. Conversely, the reason theistic myths do exist is not because God does not exist, but because even obvious fabrications about something as true as God thrills us. Why is that? If atheism is true, why does it not excite us enough to fabricate even a single myth? If theism is untrue, why has it excited us enough to fabricate myths in every language on earth? Could it be that mankind doesn’t find the truth exciting? No. I think it more likely that mankind prefers to lie about the Truth (Theism) than to tell the truth about a lie (atheism). Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

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