ishalon

The Death argument doesn't work, but its still a very good argument to make because you'll get most intelligent designers to mention "God" or "heaven" after trying so long to be unspecific

rainbow walking

Thanx Diana. What's so funny about all this is that I kept thinking, after reading your replies, "this person can't be for real...can she?" It just never occurred to me that you were shining me on. I was thinking, "man, I've got to untangle myself from this discussion somehow cause this person is a genuine grade a nutcase." The fact that no one else was digging into you also should have clued me in. Oh well, a lesson well learned. I don't mind a good joke on me. It was fun and you were quite credible as a fundy.

HelenM

rw, diana (in no particular order )

I sincerely hope that the relationship between the two of you will survive rw's startling discovery that diana is not a devout Christian after all . I do apologize if it was one that both of you would rather he not have made...if so it was an error of judgement on my part for dropping that hint

rw I'm fine; thanks for asking!

love
Helen

Technos

The human eye is too perfect? I guess The whole death thing brings up the question: How intelligent? I find it funny that so many creationist fail to notice the limitless imperfections of the human body, from what we lack to what we have and do not need, the inefficiency of our digestive and respiratory systems, to the utter uselessness of some parts of our bodies. The whole "It's too complex so a magic father figure made it" argument is laughable at best, because things don't always start out so complex. Such organs as the human eye evolved through countless improvements to the eyes of past species and the adaptive advantage better eyes allowed them.

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: Technos ]</p>

Automaton

Assuming for an instant that the matter/energy/law configuration of our universe is the perfect possible universe for a God to create, the second law of thermodynamics would be unavoidable. Death is necessary if one takes into account the second law. And according to Christians, good humans live forever with God anyway, so "death" is not really death.

diana

Technos:

Like all atheists, you are taking my words completely out of context again. Let's look at your post one line at a time:

*sigh*

It's too perfect to have simply evolved that way, which is not the same as saying it's simply "too perfect." REally. This is such an elementary point.

Again--and I'm already tired of repeating myself on this point--just because you think you, a flawed being by your own admission would have designed life differently does not mean your way is "more intelligent" than The Ultimate Intelligence, Our Creator. I can only pray that God forgives you for your overweening arrogance.

It's all in your perspective. You see these as "imperfections"; I see them as human frailties that constantly remind us of our own inferiority and mortality. Unlike you, the more I know about my own body, thanks to the efforts of science, the more I'm awed by the brilliance of Our Designer, who created us with such complexity, but with enough flaws to keep us humble.

Non-sequitor.

They "evolved," did they? Then why don't they keep evolving, then? And where is your evidence that we had ancestors unlike us, and how do you intend to prove that their eyeballs were different from ours, and that ours are better? You have made an entire series of assertions with no proof or support whatsoever.

Why can't you see that what you just described is something you believe due to your own faith. I simply believe in God. If you apply Occham's Razor, which you "freethinkers" are so fond of, you can clearly see how much simpler it is to just believe in God; you are making everything far more difficult than it needs to be, adding extra steps in a process. The truth is, we already know where we came from, and your denying it doesn't make it any less true: God created us in His image.

Prostrate Before Him,

d

luvluv

Not for nothing, but wouldn't immortality pretty much wreck the ecosystem? Things would be getting pretty crowded around here if no one had ever died. If we got rid of death, at a certain point we'd have to get rid of procreation.

And then there'd be the lack of food and stuff.

I also think it is a mistake to think that an Omnipotent Designer would necessarily create a perfect universe. It would depend on His purpose. If Heaven is poorly designed, then you have an argument, but the fact that earth is poorly designed is not necessarily a refutation of an Omnipotent Creator. If the purpose of this planet is what Christianity thinks it is, (to allow beings the free option of growing in love with God and each other, without making that action compulsory) then the Earth is pretty well designed for it's function.

Philosoft

Or God could just blink a bunch of humans to another planet. You're not being very creative.

<strong> Unless God made hamburger trees that produce hamburgers every seven minutes. You really have no imagination.

<strong> Naturally. Especially if he enjoys our suffering on some level.

<strong> Is this the same designed Earth where people kill each other over which is the correct way to worship this god?

Ryanfire

You do know.. through science, we'll be able to change our lifespan, if not make ourselves immortal in a health sense. What do you think about that? Humans aren't as weak as you make them out to be. Can you explain why we have discovered the human dna sequence? Because god wants us to what? how does god play a role in this? What's the purpose of healing ourselves if in death we go to a "god"? Why do some people die such a horrible death such as cancer? Should you really go through that much torture? Let me tell you, it's nothing done out of a "god's" love.

Death is something we don't have to fear, but it is something that we can prevent. Us humans are good at fixing things, and quite resourceful.

case

What?