simian

In response to ferrocene's post:

When you eat beef you probably get some bovine hormones into you. When you eat soy you certainly get plant hormones into you.

If I remember correctly, lactose intollerance is not an allergy issue, it is an enzyme issue. As an adult you either are still producing the enzyme to break down lactose or not - and if not, something like Lactaid may help.

I worked on a small dairy farm in the mid 1980's while I was in high school. My collegiate education and work experience is in the food processing industry (though not dairy). I still drink milk and consume other dairy products. There are hormones out there to increase the milk yield and period of time the cows produce milk (one main question is if the economics play out well - many producers don't think so, at least the last time I checked). This has also been done with selective breeding for centuries. And pregnancy of cows is still required - don't believe me? Go to dairies and see if the have a bunch of calf crates around - either they do or they sell the calves very soon after birth.

One trait that is (or at least used to be) selected against was having a milk bag that hung low - precisely because of the problems you state. A dairy using cows like that is a poorly run dairy.

No antibiotic residue is allowed in the milk sold - this means that when a cow is on antibiotics, the milk must not be in the human food stream until the cow's metabolism clears the antibiotic from the cow's system. In the case of the dairy I worked at, the milk was either sent down the drain or fed to the calves. Ditto for infected udders (which, of course, would be treated by antibiotics).

Very few processes will kill 100 % of microbes in any food. Pasteurization is no different. If you are outside the US you can probably find ultrapasteurized milk - it is shelf stable at room temperatures, meaning nearly all microbes have been killed.

Homoginization is not a process meant to kill microbes. The purpose of homoginization is to induce shear in the milk to break the larger fat globules down into smaller ones, so the milk can be on the shelf longer without the fat separating from the water.

Simian

Mad Kally

I love 2% cow's milk. I've been drinking it all my adult life. I drink it because I like the way it tastes. I don't even drink alcohol, so price isn't important. I can't imagine eating a big piece of chocolate cake without milk. (like the commercials) I may not need it as an adult, but I like it anyway.

My ex-mother in law went to a dairy near where she lived and got a male baby calf. I helped her feed it with a bottle. Yes, they do need to be pregnant.

They sell it at netgrocer.com.

Nuno Figueira

If you live in the states you are getting a kind of bovine growth hormone in milk that has been showed to increase growth in cancer cells in rats and is also active in humans. This growth hormone increases milk production by 10-15% and although it's banned in Europe and many other places the Monsant drug Empire which apparently has a good deal of power within the FDA got it to be aproved and no labelling is required to warn consumers. This alone would be enough for me not to drink milk.

In beef from normal cows there's no growth hormone and the steroids they use will be broke down by your liver.

Soy is the devil and only fermented products should be used.

Correct, one should not confuse food intolerance with allergies, they're quite different things. Casein allergy is pretty common though and usually results in a lot of skin and respiratory problems.

Which milk they feed to the calfs? If they fed them the pasteurized cooked milk you eat they will die in a few weeks.

I don't mean to sound like I think milk is the devil and if you have no issues with it then drink it at will. I can only stress the amazing improvement in my asthma and mucus problems once I eliminated casein from my diet. Milk is essentially extremely overrated, the fat is the wrong kind, the sugar content is too high, the calcium in it doesn't seem to do much for your bone health as the countries with the highest hosteoporousis (spelling?) rate are also the ones with the biggest milk consumption rates, some say it's duet to the high phosphorous content that leaches calcium form the bones.

Here's an excerpt from a Dr Collin Campbell published on Discovey channel (not exactly a scientific resource I know, but still interesting):


"The Harvard Nurses' Health Study reported in 1997 that, among 78,000 women followed for 12 years, those who got the most calcium from dairy products had approximately double the hip fracture rate, compared to women who got little or no calcium from dairy products. In other words, the more calcium in your diet, the higher your risk of breaking bones.

The July 2000 issue of Pediatrics similarly reports that, among girls 12 to 18, calcium intake had no effect on bone density, although exercise did help build strong bones (Pediatrics July 2000; 106: 40-44). (CLICK HERE)

The US guidelines are high, even when measured against those of most other western countries. As an example, the British recommended calcium intake for kids ranges from 350mg to 1,000mg (versus 800mg to 1,300mg in the US) and for adults is 700mg (versus 1,000mg in the US).

In the US, one in two women and one in eight men over age 50 breaks a bone because of osteoporosis, despite the fact that calcium consumption is among the highest in the world.

Walter Willett, a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health and chairman of the nutrition department, says, "There is no evidence that we have a calcium emergency as the dairy industry would have us believe. We have one of the highest calcium intakes in the world."

The Institute of Medicine recently suggested that teenagers and adults over age 50 increase their calcium intake to 1,300 and 1,200 milligrams, respectively, a day. The World Health Organization recommends 500 milligrams for children and 800 milligrams for adults. This is a substantial difference.

"The studies of bone mineral density can be highly misleading," says Dr. Willett. "What is clear is that an increase in calcium intake causes a onetime small increase in density (about 2%). However, this does not continue to accrue and disappears when stopping the extra calcium." The question is whether sustaining this slight increase will protect against fractures, something that has not been demonstrated.

In general, the Chinese eat less than half the calcium recommended by the USDA and seem healthy. Among women over 50, the hip fracture rate appeared to be one fifth as high as in Western nations.

"

simian

Nuno Figueira,

I will try to trim down and respond to what I think are important points/ideas:

rBST is, so far as I can tell, chemically the same as BST, which is the hormone that regulated milk production in cows.

So what sets rBST apart from BST? As far as I can tell, the difference is that the gene for producing BST was probably transferred to a bacterial, and the bacteria is used to make rBST. The same technology used to make insulin for human injection, just a different gene inserted into the bacteria. Please note I am reading between the lines of several non-technical websites (all anti-rBST) - I could be making incorrect assumptions.

BST is in cows anyway. rBST is made using the same gene, it should produce the same hormone.

Please note, I am not defending the use of rBST, just pointing out that it should not be different from "normal" BST found in cows.

All the foods you eat will likely have hormones in them. Any fruits, vegetables, meats. Soy is not unique.

Colustrum, the first "milk" (not quite milk) to come out after birth will almost certainly be fed to the calves. If I remember correctly, it will be heavy in antibodies and white blood cells - a quick way for the offspring to gain some of the cows resistances to disease. Later, milk that is not suitable for human consumption may be fed to the calves. Frankly, I seriously doubt it matters if it is pasteurized or not. It would generally not be (why contaminate equipment and expend energy to pasteurize?). But if it was, would it really matter? The general diet for the calf would be a milk replacement, not cows milk. There is nothing magical about the material coming directly from the udder (though it does take some effort to match digestibility and nutrient profile).



I will leave it to the medical folks, if they wish to track down info on the protective benefits (or if there are none) of calcium.

Simian

Mad Kally

I know my entire physiology class had their test question marked "WRONG" when the question was "Is Calcium the most important thing to help keep your bones healthy?" It was True or False and we all put True. When we tried to argue he said our own hormones were the most important. He was sort of a nutty professor. If someone wants to look it up, go ahead. I'm still not sure about the whole thing, I was just pissed off at getting marked wrong!

Kally

8of9

Thank evolution humans like the milk bags!!

(Nursing mom who feels for the saggy-uddered bovines)

Benjamin Franklin

Why can't Asians drink milk ?


BF

Dr Rick

Most are lactose intolerant.

Rick

Nuno Figueira

Our bodies tend not to keep things we don't use so sedentarism might be one of the biggest issues in bone loss. I never heard anything about hormones though.

Lately there has been some talk about the importance of protein, which seems not to have the calcium leashing properties in bone mass that it as assumed to have. To add further confusion to the issue, a quote from the Americal journal of nutrition:

“Getting enough calcium is essential for building and maintaining healthy bones, but new research suggests that protein may also play an important role in preventing bone loss.
The relationship between protein and bone density is not clear-cut. Some studies have detected a decreased risk of bone loss and fracture in people who consume high levels of protein. But other studies have linked protein consumption to an increased risk of fracture, especially in people who consume high levels of animal protein.
During a 3-year study of nearly 350 elderly men and women who were taking calcium citrate and malate and vitamin D supplements, investigators found that bone mineral density increased most in people whose diets contained the most protein. Whether protein came from mainly animal or plant sources did not affect the increase in bone density.
Bone mineral density may be improved by increasing protein intake in many older men and women, as long as they meet the currently recommended intakes of calcium and vitamin D.
Dietary protein was linked to increased bone density only in people who were taking supplements. Protein intake did not have a noticeable effect on bones in study participants who were assigned an inactive placebo pill. Additional research is needed to see whether protein improves bone density in older people who get all their calcium and vitamin D from dietary sources, not supplements.
The more protein a person eats, the more calcium is excreted in urine. Excess protein intake should be bad for bone. But the results of the study suggest that concerns about protein intake are probably unfounded,
You need both calcium and protein for bone, and if your diet has plenty of both, then your bones are likely to be in better condition than if you are short on one or both of these nutrients.
This study and other recently published research "go a long way toward refuting" concerns that animal protein is bad for bones.
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition April 2002;75:609-610, 773-779
“

Secular Pinoy

No, no, no. I tolerate milk just fine. It's my stomach that has "issues" with milk.

Why weren't Asians built to tolerate milk? We don't mind drinking milk from cows, goats or water buffalos, so why in Darwin's name didn't we evolve lactose tolerance?