raistlinjones

Assuming for the context of this thought experiment that I was certain that the being was both omniscient and omnibenevolent, I think there might still be some good reasons not to obey.

Isaac Asimov, in the book "I, Robot", told the story of a set of robots that knew everything (through constant data senders) and, due to programming, always acted according to humanity's best interest. They were able to tell people precisely what to do in order to ensure the best possible results. And yet some people subverted the robots, not doing what was proscribed. And why? Selfishness, pure and simple, which is perfectly rational.

Look, a being that had the characteristics you described would be looking out for everyone's best interest - not just mine. Therefore, there will be times when someone else's interests will conflict with mine. And in those cases, the being would have to judge that one of our interests supercede the other (my desire for sex with someone versus their desire for not sex with me). And whenever He judges in not my favor, I would be totally rational to not do as recommended by him.

It would also be rational to choose an action that He opposes to assert that I have control over my own destiny. Or to do it simply to find out why he didn't recommend it. Those all seem like good reasons to me. Then again, I take my personal freedom and rationality very seriously; I only do thing if I have good reasons for doing so. I never do something just because someone told me to, even if they do "know better".

The Other Michael

It appears to me that a person acting contrary to the wishes of an omnibenevolent being would have nothing to fear, based on an omnibenevolent being not doing anything that wasn't benevolent.

cheers,
Michael

dk

An omnipotent being doesn't wish, but knows. People on the other being complex rational creatures might wish to be omipotent, but the wish being displaced from reality doesn't suit thier nature.

99Percent

*loud contestant buzz*

"doesn't" is incompatible with omnipotence.

Sojourner553

I agree that an all powerful all-good God should be obeyed...because by definition such a being would want what is ultimately best for us...

However the fact that you and I disagree whether God has demonstrated his/her existance -- is a major proof that no omniscient omnipotent being exists. As Percy Bysshe Shelley put this,

"If God has spoken, why is the universe not convinced?"

Also:

"One of the proofs of the immortality of the soul is that myriads have believed it--they also believed the world was flat." -- Mark Twain

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -- Carl Sagan


**************************

Until someone shows to me that an all powerful all-good God does exist -- I'm questioning authorities -- ESPECIALLY THOSE who insist their authority comes from God.

{remind me to tell you some stories of people who killed -- all the while convinced they were following the will of God -- and I mean Christians, not the infamous WTC Muslim terrorists.]


Sojourner

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

luvluv

Folks, the context of the question was that the benevolent and omniscient God REVEALED Himself.

That is, GIVEN an omnibenevolent and omniscient God, what are the rational reasons for disobeying Him? I'm not trying to prove He exists, or that He is the God of the Bible. I'm simply asking that if such a being were to reveal Himself tommorow, would you obey him or not? And why or why not?

raistlinjones was the only one who gave a coherent response in the negative, and thanks for that raistlin. I still think, though, that your objection follows the assumption that a good for you entails a definite bad for someone else, and vice versa. I think that's capitalism talking. It is possible that omniscience and omnibenevolence knows that what is best for you is exactly the same as what is best for everyone else. For example, it could be that you and another person both want a ham sandwich. God may want you to share the sandwich, and you may want the sandwich all to yourself. You might say, in this situation, that you would be rationally justified in taking the whole sandwich for yourself. However, omniscience might know that you would actually be happier learning to share than you would be if you had complete control over all the sandwiches in the world. It seems to me that it is impossible for you to disagree with an omniscient omnibenevolence about what is good for you and be correct. If you disagree with it, by definition, you are the one who is wrong.

If you knew this were the case would you then obey Him?

T.O.M.

There is something to fear about disobeying an omniscient omnibenevolent: you would miss out on the best possibilities for your life. Even if He did not "punish" you, your life would not be as good as it could have been because you did not follow it's advice.

MrDarwin

luvluv, you are avoiding answering your own question.

Now, just so you don't have any excuses to wiggle out of it yourself, I will answer a little more directly: yes, we should obey such a deity. But would we obey such a deity? I might not be able to bring myself to do so. As I indicated earlier, it depends very much on what I was asked to do (or not to do). And that is because I am only human.

Now, how about you?

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

luvluv

I was trying to show, by the way, that there are non-rational reasons why people choose not to believe in or obey God. I don't think a rational case can be made for disobeying an omniscient omnibenevolent authority, so one would have to resort to irrationality to do it.

I was expecting more people to say they wouldn't obey, but I'm glad to see that most of you are committed to rationality even if it leads you somewhere you probably don't want to go.

luvluv

Yes, MrDarwin, I would hope I would obey. I can't say I definitely would in all cases because I presently believe to be in a relationship with such a being and I do not always obey Him. But, yes, I would always try to do whatever He told me to.

I agree with you totally, being human I wouldn't be able to obey all the time (that's kind of the point of Christianity) but I would try.

Again, the focus of my question was whether or not there was any RATIONAL reason to disobey such a being.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

raistlinjones

Interesting...so what you're saying is that, in any situation, the action I should take has the best consequenses for me and for everyone all at once? That's socialism talking! No, but seriously, I think that's a little too optimistic - I very much doubt that, for most cases, what is best for me is also best for all of humanity. But maybe there we will just have to agree to disagree.