Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seebs · 07-19-2002, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX:
It is a good science and all, but for a Christian to believe this, they must be thinking of a different Christian God, and NOT the one in the Holy Bible.

The bible is clear on it's account of creation, and one will find nothing in the bible to support evolution.

Huh. Oddly, the Bible is also pretty clear on how sickness happens, and I find nothing in it to support the germ theory of disease.

Luckily, I am aware that the Bible isn't a science textbook. The only science textbook I think God provides us with is essentially a large free-form lab book. A very large one.

Badfish · 07-19-2002, 11:40 PM

Hey seebs, nice to see you!

The bible doesn't go into a lot of detail about germs and scientific explainations. God knew we would find that out on our own, man was predicted and prophesied to seek knowledge, and our MINDS have evolved, not necessarily and probably certainly NOT our genetic make up.

To the person who called me simple, please don't resort to belittlement to make a point (which you didn't make a very good one anyway), it won't work with me, and I will after time certainly prove I am not simple. So please refrain from stereotyping, ok?

Badfish · 07-19-2002, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:


But that is a different account of creation. I was specifically addressing the account in Genesis 1, which you brought up previously.

Rufus, that is the same account, only in more detail. And when God said he breathed life into his nostrils, it doesn't leave room for evolutionary speculation.

The topic is creation, and before you guys claim we don't believe in God, why would you need to argue against creation, Creation (a possibility) could only have been accomplished by a supreme entity and being superior to Humans.

Seebs, your a christian (a liberal Christian like me) what do you believe and how do you interpret Genesis, does it leave open speculation on the possibility of evolution?

RufusAtticus · 07-20-2002, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX:


Rufus, that is the same account, only in more detail. And when God said he breathed life into his nostrils, it doesn't leave room for evolutionary speculation.

They are different stories from different sources. That is the concensus of OT scholars. It is apparently even more apparent in the original Hebrew. I don't see how Genesis 2 can go into more detail when the order of events is different.

I doubt that a litteral interpretation of Genesis 2 leaves much room for evolution. That's why most educated Christians recognize that it is a Hebrew mythological story with the importance being that God was involved.

~~RvFvS~~

Dr Rick · 07-20-2002, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX:
The bible doesn't go into a lot of detail about germs and scientific explainations. God knew we would find that out on our own...

You're posting inconsistent ad hoc assertions by telling us when God wanted to be vague (as above) and when He wanted to be specific (as below) to suit your claims.

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX here and on another thread:
The bible is clear on it's account of creation...It is clear man was made in Gods image right then and there. The biblical lineage is clear too, it did not leave any gaps for speculation on evolution.

Rick

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

scigirl · 07-20-2002, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX:
and our MINDS have evolved, not necessarily and probably certainly NOT our genetic make up.

So our you claiming that our genetic make-up has nothing to do with our mind?

scigirl

ksagnostic · 07-20-2002, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peregrine:


In the same episode there is a Kevin or Keith Miller, a professor from U of Kansas, who is a fundamentalist and accepts evolution. One of his positions is that from our Homo sapien precursor, God chose a male and female to be Adam and Eve and from them modern man evolved. If he has written anything, it would probably be an interesting read.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Peregrine ]

University of Kansas? KU????

Them's fightin' words!

ksagnostic
Kansas STATE University graduate

excreationist · 07-20-2002, 07:52 AM

About biology and the Bible:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LEV+17:13-16&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref =on" target="_blank">Leviticus 17:13-16</a>:

Quote:

Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off [from his people]."
Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean. But if he does not wash his clothes and bathe himself, he will be held responsible.

I guess that "life in the blood" thing is a bit off topic... but in the second part of the passage it implies that having a bath and washing your clothes and waiting a few hours will prevent any problems (from food-poisoning, etc) from eating old carcasses.

Oolon Colluphid:
Thanks for the workout... it led me to remembering those Exodus verses...

NeilUnreal · 07-20-2002, 08:43 AM

I think what�s often overlooked is that the creation account in Genesis is scientific. That is, it�s based on the accepted scientific theories of the time it was written � the stuff which was being written up in the magi equivalent of �Science,� and coming out of the big �universities in the east� (e.g. Persia). The author(s) of Genesis were placing this research and thinking into their own existing mythological and religious context as a form of culture-building and apologetic. It�s similar to what Kenneth Miller tries to do in his recent Finding Darwin�s God. In this sense, it�s possible to see Genesis both as a book of science (though outdated) and a book of faith.

-Neil

Bubba · 07-20-2002, 08:59 AM

Just to throw some Gas (or petrol, for you Brits) on the fire...

Like it or not Christians who believe in evolution are here to stay. I'm currently working out of town as an electrician wiring a Church of Christ/Christian Church. After one of the job meetings I get to talking to one of the members, who is excited about the recent hominid fossil find in Africa. The pastor is rather liberal and comfortable with evolution. I know of A LOT of Christians who believe the whole Kenneth Miller type non-Id evolutionary scenario.

It would seem that Christianity is evolving...

Personally, me beliefs run somehat parallel to Ken Miller's or Glen Morton's. At the very least I think that it is positive that there are a whole lot of people who are not in denial about the nature of the universe and what science has discovered.

Besides, I'd still be a Hugh Ross style creationist if it weren't for this board, talk origins, and a few friends who are thiestic evolutionists. If nothing else, I personally believe that the evidence for decent with modification is overwhelming and that more and more thinking people are going to reject YEC and ID.

Bubba

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07-19-2002, 11:40 PM	#42
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	Hey seebs, nice to see you! The bible doesn't go into a lot of detail about germs and scientific explainations. God knew we would find that out on our own, man was predicted and prophesied to seek knowledge, and our MINDS have evolved, not necessarily and probably certainly NOT our genetic make up. To the person who called me simple, please don't resort to belittlement to make a point (which you didn't make a very good one anyway), it won't work with me, and I will after time certainly prove I am not simple. So please refrain from stereotyping, ok?

07-20-2002, 08:43 AM	#49
NeilUnreal Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 77	I think what�s often overlooked is that the creation account in Genesis is scientific. That is, it�s based on the accepted scientific theories of the time it was written � the stuff which was being written up in the magi equivalent of �Science,� and coming out of the big �universities in the east� (e.g. Persia). The author(s) of Genesis were placing this research and thinking into their own existing mythological and religious context as a form of culture-building and apologetic. It�s similar to what Kenneth Miller tries to do in his recent Finding Darwin�s God. In this sense, it�s possible to see Genesis both as a book of science (though outdated) and a book of faith. -Neil

07-20-2002, 08:59 AM	#50
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Just to throw some Gas (or petrol, for you Brits) on the fire... Like it or not Christians who believe in evolution are here to stay. I'm currently working out of town as an electrician wiring a Church of Christ/Christian Church. After one of the job meetings I get to talking to one of the members, who is excited about the recent hominid fossil find in Africa. The pastor is rather liberal and comfortable with evolution. I know of A LOT of Christians who believe the whole Kenneth Miller type non-Id evolutionary scenario. It would seem that Christianity is evolving... Personally, me beliefs run somehat parallel to Ken Miller's or Glen Morton's. At the very least I think that it is positive that there are a whole lot of people who are not in denial about the nature of the universe and what science has discovered. Besides, I'd still be a Hugh Ross style creationist if it weren't for this board, talk origins, and a few friends who are thiestic evolutionists. If nothing else, I personally believe that the evidence for decent with modification is overwhelming and that more and more thinking people are going to reject YEC and ID. Bubba

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