pz

No, you haven't. You've sparked strong disagreement and a prolonged discussion. There has been absolutely no consideration given to throwing you off of II or closing this thread. You are welcome to continue the argument.

seebs

Beating our skulls bloody bashing them against walls over on Christian discussion boards, where we can make the people on "our" side stop being such assholes. Trying to gradually, slowly, lead people away from the lies they've been told about evolution into the simple truth that it's almost certainly the way life as we know it came to be, and that this is in no way incompatible with rational theism.

That, and a lot of us (myself included) find your behavior just as offensive as the behavior of the rabid fundamentalists you oppose.

What you're stretching looks to me to be intolerance. Perhaps you should try an experiment: Try to accept, deep down in your heart, that it's okay for people to be religious, and that it doesn't make them bad people, or stupid, or otherwise worthy of contempt. Then see if you find the world a happier, better, place. I bet you will.

scigirl

Some of what you are saying has some merit. However, I have seen you call every person who disagrees with you not a "true" atheist, or a christian, or worse...

I suggest everyone here stick to debating and sticking to arguments, not ad hom attacks. AND if you can't take it, don't dish it.

Thanks,

scigirl

scigirl

Meaning what exactly? Secular in terms of church and state, or the eradication of all religious references anywhere?

You are probably right - and I think we as atheists/agnostics/freethinkers need to convince them of that, because as Rufus said, they DO have the capability and power to change things within the Christian community.

I have read articles (here in the library I think) titled something like "Why I am a Christian against the 10 C 's in the govt" etc.

However, while I see the fringe groups' efforts to create a theocracy as frightening, there are other groups who frighten me nearly as much or more than the christians. I guess that's more of where I'm coming from. Yes we need to keep the fundies from teaching YEC crap to our kids. BUT that isn't enough, because people will just believe other hokey ideas (astrology, homeopathy) if they aren't taught good science. It's clear to me that ignorance is an enemy of science, but it isn't as clear to me what role the "Christians" are playing in that ignorance. Some groups are advocating it. Yet on the other hand, some of the best graduate/medical schools in the country are run by Christian groups. So they are fighting the ignorance I think, they just aren't as vocal, as say, Dawkins.

scigirl

Starboy

Seebs,

Let me be completely clear on this point, it is okay for people to be religious, stupid or both as long as they do not interfere with other people’s rights to be atheist or stupid or both. I am an atheist not because I was raised one, but because ever since I can remember I have felt religion was a ridiculous point of view. It is my right under the constitution to think that and say so. I am amazed that you are discomfited to find such a viewpoint, especially on an atheist forum. I do not seek out Christians to tell them what I think about their religion. I do not visit Christian forums and argue with them about the silliness of their beliefs. However on this forum which is expressly for atheists, when I do come across a Christian who has the stupidity to think that atheists do not think as they do for good reason, I do not suffer such fools lightly.

As I have asked previously - where are all the tolerant Christians? Why are they not vigorously demanding a secular society? How could they let the President get away with interfering with a State Supreme Court ruling regarding the use of the word god in the pledge? How could it be possible for monotheist sentiments be plastered on government buildings? How would it even be possible for one school board let alone the scores of boards to consider teaching creationism as science? If tolerant Christians were the majority instead of the minority, we would not be having this discussion. But we are having this discussion and it is because of one reason, tolerant Christians are not in the majority. Why is this so? Because Christianity doesn’t work, it has little ability to induce its followers to be loving or tolerant.

Seebs, do you seek a secular society? Do you encourage your fellow Christians to seek a secular society? Or are you perfectly content to leave things as they are? If you are content is it no wonder that atheist would want Christianity to GO AWAY?

Starboy

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Starboy

Your are right scigirl, to all atheists I have offended by questioning their sincerity as atheists, I apologize.

Starboy

seebs

The question is, how's that any different from the right of the Christians to tell you you're a Bad Person? They're wrong, sure, but so are you.

Lots of atheists think what they do for no good reason. My guess is that the vast majority of living humans hold whatever cosmological beliefs they do for purely emotional reasons which they have cleverly rationalized, myself included.

You've made a sampling error. I'm tolerant. I'm tolerant of *lots* of things, including what strikes me as inappropriate behavior among fellow Christians. So, where I am is hanging around on BBS's arguing with them. I just don't have the motivation to pursue every last cause to my dying breath, and frankly, no matter how offensively wrong I think it is to have the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, I'd rather worry about more concrete things I think I can do something about.

As to your claim about whether or not Christianity works, well, it works for me, and that's all I can really measure.

I think a secular society, within reason, would be a good thing. Most of the time, people agitating for it seem to me to be going rather further than is appropriate or necessary. I believe religion, whether I agree with a given one or not, is a valuable human endeavor which deserves some support from society; at the same time, I don't wish to see it enshrined.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd want Christianity to "GO AWAY". It just seems to me that it's wrong - both in the sense of a moral failing and in the sense of an ill-considered stance. I think you'd be better off working on establishing workable boundaries such that you and the Christians can both go about your lives.

Your right to be totally free from any hint of religion does not exist, any more than I have a right to a world without atheists, fundamentalists, pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, and so on. (I actually wouldn't *want* such a world, but that's a separate point.)

Yes, religion being pushed in your face is annoying. Being told you must hide every outward sign of your beliefs is just as wrong, though, whether your beliefs are in sky pixies or nothing you can't see.

Anyway, if you want more tolerant Christians to hang around and work with you on, for instance, opposing the posting of the 10 Commandments in courtrooms, perhaps you should start by recognizing that we exist, that we're decent people, that we're not idiots, and that we're on your side. If your side is defined such that we aren't on it, well, don't be surprised that we don't help much. Easy, huh?

{Rufus: Cleaned up UBB code.}

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Starboy

Yes scigirl, I too am a big supporter of knowledge over ignorance, in particular critically examined objective knowledge such as science. And of course to say that ALL Christians oppose such an education is silly. But it still does beg the question, where do MOST of the Christians stand on this issue? Examining the record of the last few decades does not show Christians in general to be big supporters of such an education.

Starboy

seebs

Most people aren't big supporters or opposers of anything unless it's in their fields. Most atheists aren't particularly concerned about evolutionary theory either, you know.

Starboy

Seebs, point taken. Thank you for an interesting and enlightening discussion.

Starboy