Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Autonemesis · 07-23-2002, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Historically, atheistic nations -- namely the Soviet Union and China -- have a bloody history of repressing the freedom of their own citizens and are also guilty of religious repression and persecution.

I don't see any mechanism by which atheism could prevent, condemn or discourage such behavior. Are you aware of any?

Yes I am aware of such a mechanism: the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights with the 1st Amendment Establishment clause.

Automaton · 07-24-2002, 01:55 AM

David Mathews, you can shove it up your ass too. You approach the situation with the false pretext of wanting to have a civilized debate, but instead of debating, you simply post your ridiculous accusations, then do not respond to any posts, but like to pretend you do, by quoting a response to you, but then gibbering on about something totally unrelated. Please get it through your thick skull, that atheism says nothing about love, or hate... at all. It is just the nonbelief in deity, or the belief in the nonexistence of deity. Just because atheists aren't afraid of punishment from invisible, magical fairies that are figments of their own imagination, does not mean they are amoral!

HumanisTim · 07-24-2002, 03:45 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Mathews:
[QB]Hello Everyone,

I am beginning to have doubts about atheism's devotion to the concept of love and especially the universal love which is commanded by Christianity and the other great religions of the world.

What I want to know:

1. How does atheism define "Love"?

2. Does atheism command or advocate "love" among atheists?

3. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in between atheists and Christians?

4. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in a universal sense?

5. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage hate. Yes or No? Please explain.

6. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage prejudice and bigotry. Yes or No? Please explain.

7. Atheism has no command against violence. Yes or no?

Sincerely,

Atheism is merely a position towards non belief in god. Nothing more, nothing less. After all there isn't a grand pubbah of atheists. There for it doesn't make a stance on issues like love. From what I understand, Humanism takes more postions on social issues. Maybe it be better to use that. I personally believing caring for your fellow human does make the world a better place. And has positive benefits for all. But that is my individual position. Tell me this who is better, an atheist who cares for his fellow man. Because his own personal morals compel him too. Or a christian who does it because god says so.

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 04:20 AM

Hello Automaton,

Quote:

David Mathews, you can shove it up your ass too. You approach the situation with the false pretext of wanting to have a civilized debate, but instead of debating, you simply post your ridiculous accusations, then do not respond to any posts, but like to pretend you do, by quoting a response to you, but then gibbering on about something totally unrelated. Please get it through your thick skull, that atheism says nothing about love, or hate... at all. It is just the nonbelief in deity, or the belief in the nonexistence of deity. Just because atheists aren't afraid of punishment from invisible, magical fairies that are figments of their own imagination, does not mean they are amoral!

David: Atheists can be amoral. Yes or No?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 04:24 AM

Hello Synaesthesia,

Quote:

Well, the fact of the matter is that people have to learn about love from their families, their culture, their friends, their enemies.

It's no different with anyone, is it? God doesn't teach you about love, your parents, your community does. If they so choose to preach hatred and violence, that is what you will learn, as surely as if you were an atheist.

David: You are making a valid point. There is no doubt that all people learn love and hate from the family, culture and religion. Religious people have taught and promoting violence and hate.

What I am seeking to establish on this thread is that atheists are just as capable of teaching their children violence and hate, and that atheists are just as capable of committing acts of violence and hate.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

bonduca · 07-24-2002, 04:35 AM

What is your purpose?

WJ · 07-24-2002, 04:42 AM

Hi David!

It was ironic because this morning I was thinking about this subject only in a slightly different vein. I was thinking that since most atheists are materialist/objectivists/rationalists, then an actual belief in the power of love is not only impossible, but a contradiction to them.

Otherwise, it seems that one is back to chasing a some thing one truly does not understand, yet it is sought in a most universal way.

Thoughts?

the apeman

scumble · 07-24-2002, 05:12 AM

Yes David, atheists are just as capable of being utter bastards as religious people. This doesn't tell us anything at all, except that humans can frequently get off track.
Just about everyone has pointed out that atheism is a position held by a person. Outside of not believing God, atheism neither promotes or forbids anything at all. Simple.

I'm very much in agreement with optimist. Love, morality etc. have everything to do with fundamental human characteristics. If we didn't love and have certain sensible guidelines for behaviour, our societies would crumble entirely. It's necessary for survival. A lot of people make trouble by breaking the accepted codes, but it's nothing to do with them being atheists.

Actually, modern forms of christianity don't really demand doing good stuff. Believe in Jesus Christ is enough to get you into heaven, along with a bit of worship and apologetics. Goodness is just supposed to spontaneously materialise.
This of course is defeated by nice atheists such as myself, who manage to be good without following any religious tenets. I wonder why? According to St. Paul I'm supposed to lose my mind and start sleeping with men <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

John Page · 07-24-2002, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
I was thinking that since most atheists are materialist/objectivists/rationalists, then an actual belief in the power of love is not only impossible, but a contradiction to them.

My italics. I don't follow your reasoning, disbelief in the existence of a god does not entail disbelief in the power of love.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: John Page ]

strubenuff · 07-24-2002, 05:32 AM

Perhaps, since David's only achievement has been to rant randomly throughout his posts, and in all likelyhood he won't respond again, we should let this thread die.

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07-24-2002, 01:55 AM	#32
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	David Mathews, you can shove it up your ass too. You approach the situation with the false pretext of wanting to have a civilized debate, but instead of debating, you simply post your ridiculous accusations, then do not respond to any posts, but like to pretend you do, by quoting a response to you, but then gibbering on about something totally unrelated. Please get it through your thick skull, that atheism says nothing about love, or hate... at all. It is just the nonbelief in deity, or the belief in the nonexistence of deity. Just because atheists aren't afraid of punishment from invisible, magical fairies that are figments of their own imagination, does not mean they are amoral!

07-24-2002, 03:45 AM	#33
HumanisTim Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Reading,PA Posts: 233	[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Mathews: [QB]Hello Everyone, I am beginning to have doubts about atheism's devotion to the concept of love and especially the universal love which is commanded by Christianity and the other great religions of the world. What I want to know: 1. How does atheism define "Love"? 2. Does atheism command or advocate "love" among atheists? 3. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in between atheists and Christians? 4. Does atheism command or advocate "love" in a universal sense? 5. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage hate. Yes or No? Please explain. 6. Atheism does not forbid nor even discourage prejudice and bigotry. Yes or No? Please explain. 7. Atheism has no command against violence. Yes or no? Sincerely, Atheism is merely a position towards non belief in god. Nothing more, nothing less. After all there isn't a grand pubbah of atheists. There for it doesn't make a stance on issues like love. From what I understand, Humanism takes more postions on social issues. Maybe it be better to use that. I personally believing caring for your fellow human does make the world a better place. And has positive benefits for all. But that is my individual position. Tell me this who is better, an atheist who cares for his fellow man. Because his own personal morals compel him too. Or a christian who does it because god says so.

07-24-2002, 04:35 AM	#36
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	What is your purpose?

07-24-2002, 04:42 AM	#37
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Hi David! It was ironic because this morning I was thinking about this subject only in a slightly different vein. I was thinking that since most atheists are materialist/objectivists/rationalists, then an actual belief in the power of love is not only impossible, but a contradiction to them. Otherwise, it seems that one is back to chasing a some thing one truly does not understand, yet it is sought in a most universal way. Thoughts? the apeman

07-24-2002, 05:12 AM	#38
scumble Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 279	Yes David, atheists are just as capable of being utter bastards as religious people. This doesn't tell us anything at all, except that humans can frequently get off track. Just about everyone has pointed out that atheism is a position held by a person. Outside of not believing God, atheism neither promotes or forbids anything at all. Simple. I'm very much in agreement with optimist. Love, morality etc. have everything to do with fundamental human characteristics. If we didn't love and have certain sensible guidelines for behaviour, our societies would crumble entirely. It's necessary for survival. A lot of people make trouble by breaking the accepted codes, but it's nothing to do with them being atheists. Actually, modern forms of christianity don't really demand doing good stuff. Believe in Jesus Christ is enough to get you into heaven, along with a bit of worship and apologetics. Goodness is just supposed to spontaneously materialise. This of course is defeated by nice atheists such as myself, who manage to be good without following any religious tenets. I wonder why? According to St. Paul I'm supposed to lose my mind and start sleeping with men <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

07-24-2002, 05:32 AM	#40
strubenuff Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NY Posts: 96	Perhaps, since David's only achievement has been to rant randomly throughout his posts, and in all likelyhood he won't respond again, we should let this thread die.

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