Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Defiant Heretic · 02-23-2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Posted by Magus55:
Thousands and Thousands, if not millions of people ( scientists, archaeologists, theologists etc.) have tried to find errors in the Bible - they haven't done it yet.

Quote:

Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin?

Really? Try looking here.

Some excerpts:

Quote:

God makes the sun and moon stand still so that Joshua could get all his killing done before dark.
Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Jos.10:12-13
The signs of true believers
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mk.16:17-18
God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
"In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Issac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18), and Moses (Ex.6:20). 15:16
Joshua (8:28) says that Ai would never again be occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity.
The river(s) of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASV, and RSV) shall dry up. (Is.19:5, Ezek.30:12, and Zech.10:11)
This has never occurred.
Is.19:18-21 predicts that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt.
Jeremiah 22:30 prophesies that Coniah will have no children and no descendant of his will ever sit upon the throne of David. But his sons are listed in 1 Chr.3:17, and Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus, who according to Luke 1:32 must sit on the throne of David.
Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Mt.16:28, 23:36, 24:34
Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. Mt.26:64, Mk.14:62.
Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mk.9:1, 13:30

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 07:22 PM

Vorko, sorry i'm not even gonna bother since you are just taking all my statements and saying Nope didn't happen without any evidence on your own part disproving it.

Diana, i posted links because i don't feel like writing a dissertation on the points im trying to make - the links i provided answer the questions you are bringing up but they are already layed out. Iv'e given alot of points and evidence, too much to cover in a week let alone a few days.

The link i posted that you chose not to read talks about non-biblical recordings of his death and ressurection - including roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus, and Pliny and Jewish writings from Josephus and the Talmud.

There are also cites to 39 ancient writings outside the Bible describing and attesting to Jesus' death and ressurection, including 17 non Christian ones. They witness to many specific details of Jesus' life, ressurection and death. Probably more historical writings witnessing it than there are for Columbus. So you can't possibly follow your methods of believing in people like Columbus and completely admiss the numerous records of Jesus. Thats illogical. And the apostles weren't martyrs just for what they believed, they were martyred for what they saw and wrote first hand. Islamic suicide bombers don't kill themselves for what they witness firsthand - they kill themselves because Allah tells them to. Jesus never said " Apostles - go see the wonders i have shown you and go be killed!

How many atheists seriously do extensive research into Christianity before dismissing it? I've present numerous arguments, evidencial proofs, testimonies, eyewitness accounts, and archaeological findings to the validity of the Bible and Jesus. Yet you don't even take a second glance at them before dismissing them as being invalid. The only thing left to prove it is for God to stand before you and say Hi!. Of course his holiness is so profound and radiant you would literally die by looking upon him so don't think that would work anyway.

In summary:

Many Many accounts of people both inside and outside the Bible, for and against give written accounts of Jesus' life, death and ressurection. You can't claim any other human existed if you can't even acknowledge all the claims for Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled prophecies so astronomical it would be impossible for any other mortal human to do so. And the odds of 1 out of 10 to the 157th are only for fulling 48 prophecies!! there are 252 more!

Archeologists have found evidence to biblical people, events, and accounts.

The accuracy of the copies of the Bible are nearly perfect. More so than any other written historical document ever found.

No scientist has ever been able to disprove the Bibles accounts and accuracy.

David said how Jesus would die, in detail before Crucifixtion was even invented.

The sites of Jesus' miracles were found by Archaeologists just as it says in the Bible.

The original OT and NT have been copied 5600 times yet all copies are accurate to any other copy with a max error of less than 1% ( and remember - the copies were over a long span of time and they didn't have Xerox back then).

Romans and Jews historically keep the most sound records in history and neither have any record that said Jesus was forever laid in his tomb because when the guards that were guarding his tomb went in to see the body - it wasn't there - amazing how a thin, brutally beaten, starved, suffocated, nearly bloodless man moved a massive stone to sneak past guards without ever being seen only to end up in town in perfect health.

And im sure there is more i'm not thinking of. Apparently you can accept some historical accounts but not others just because you don't like the controversial one. Like you, i wasn't really big on religion when i was younger ( was never an atheist but would go so far as to say i may have been agnostic) and i did extensive studying and i can't accept myself as a person by denying all the evidence iv'e seen.

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oriecat
I will admit to not having read this thread, but regarding the original post, I would like to say that it appears that god doesn't believe in copyright infringement either. Isn't that a bit much to be posting and still be in compliance with forum rules?

The links i provided give credit to where they are from - i'm not infrining on any copyright laws.

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 07:29 PM

Dark_ Heretic - how are those disproving the Bible? The person who wrote the skeptics Bible is just stating things that he doesn't understand in context or that can't be proven by science.

The last 3 lines of your quote about Jesus don't disprove anything - those prophecies haven't been fullfilled yet - Jesus hasn't come a second time.

Here are the last 3 statements in full context. (red is the skeptics twist of it). Some of them you also have to read further to get there full meaning.

Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Mt.16:28, 23:36, 24:34

.Mt.16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This is referring to Jesus ressurection thats going to happen soon. He is telling the aspotles that He will ascend into the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. Mt.26:64, Mk.14:62.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The high priest is asking Jesus if he is the son of God. Jesus told him yes but eventually you will see me sitting at the right hand of God judging you. [hereafter means eventually or to come, not in a few minutes]

Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mk.9:1, 13:30

Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Leading up to these verses, Jesus is telling the signs that will precede his second coming and the generation that sees those signs is that one that won't pass till He returns. Generation can also mean race/people speaking of the Jews that won't see Israel destroyed before Jesus' second coming. We are most likely that generation he is speaking of that will see his second coming. The fighting in the middle east are some of the signs.

(from blueletterbible.org)

Sorry doesn't prove anything. They are taken out of context and the meanings are misunderstand, altered. All you have proven to me by these quotes are that the person whom you quoted has absolutely no clue how to read and interpret scripture.

Fiach · 02-23-2003, 08:00 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55
There is evidence of the flood, there are other written accounts by other civilizations existing when the flood happened.

There is evidence that the flood could not have happened.

The fact is that certain animals are found only in certain isolated location. For example, Kangaroos have never been found outside of Australia and New Guinea. Certain species of fresh water fish have been found nowhere outside of the Amazon Basin. Lemurs are only on the Island of Madascar in the last 20 million years. Emus, Koalas, Marsupial wolves, wombats, and marsupial lions are found only in Australia. Many other animals while on the Eurasian mainland are found only at great distances from Palestine, Mt. Ararat, and Mesopotamia. These include: polar bears, tapirs, aardvarks, Meercats, Irish Elk, Reindeer/Caribou, Moose, the Ice loving Macaques of Northern Japan. There are a few thousand other animals found far from Mesopotamia.

These represent animals never found in Mesopotamia/Ararat. How did Noah and his sons gather all of these animals from the far reaches of the left and right hemispheres and polar areas? How did they fit in the approximately 3.8 million species into the Ark if it was the wee little boat described in Genesis? How could they store enough food for the entire long journey aboard the tiny boat? When it landed on Mt. Ararat how did they return all of these animals back to their places of origin?

How did they transport some 3000 species of delicate fresh water tropical fish back to the Amazon Basin across thousands of miles of salt sea? How did they transport the Koalas, Wallabies, Kangaroos, Wombats, Marsupial wolves, Emus, and Marsupial lions back to the island continent of Australia? How did they get South American Tapirs back to South America along with Jaguars, sloths, prehensile tailed New World Monkeys, Armadillos, Alpacas, Llamas, as well as a million species of South American insects? (A fourth of all species live in the Amazon Basin.) How did they get the 9 types of Lemur back to Madagascar?

The amount of water needed to flood the Earths highest mountains would have to be enough to cover Mt. Everest at 29,000 plus feet or over 5 miles higher than present sea level. Can we even begin to imagine the immense quantity of water that would require? If Earth had been covered over 5 miles deep it would require 980 million cubic miles of water or 2.55 billion cubic kilometres of water. That water would have to be obtained and then carted away somehow. There are no empty spaces within the Earth for all of that water.

So, you see, it is a scientific, or really a physical impossibility that Noah�s Legend could be true. The size of the boat is far too small for the number of animals and their food supply. The gathering of the animals from all over the world and delivering them back to their places of origin would have taken many years and hundreds of ocean going vessels to accomplish that task. The obtaining and disposing of many hundred thousand or millions of cubic miles of water is impossible without divine magic, which I don�t accept.

If you postulate miracle, i.e. magic, you must show me proof that magic exists. You must prove that magic ever occurred in any time or place. Other than magic, the Noah�s Fable was not physically possible.

The fact is that certain animals are found only in certain isolated location. For example, Kangaroos have never been found outside of Australia and New Guinea. Certain species of fresh water fish have been found nowhere outside of the Amazon Basin. Lemurs are only on the Island of Madascar in the last 20 million years. Emus, Koalas, Marsupial wolves, wombats, and marsupial lions are found only in Australia. Many other animals while on the Eurasian mainland are found only at great distances from Palestine, Mt. Ararat, and Mesopotamia. These include: polar bears, tapirs, aardvarks, Meercats, Irish Elk, Reindeer/Caribou, Moose, the Ice loving Macaques of Northern Japan. There are a few thousand other animals found far from Mesopotamia.

These represent animals never found in Mesopotamia/Ararat. How did Noah and his sons gather all of these animals from the far reaches of the left and right hemispheres and polar areas? How did they fit in the approximately 3.8 million species into the Ark if it was the wee little boat described in Genesis? How could they store enough food for the entire long journey aboard the tiny boat? When it landed on Mt. Ararat how did they return all of these animals back to their places of origin?

How did they transport some 3000 species of delicate fresh water tropical fish back to the Amazon Basin across thousands of miles of salt sea? How did they transport the Koalas, Wallabies, Kangaroos, Wombats, Marsupial wolves, Emus, and Marsupial lions back to the island continent of Australia? How did they get South American Tapirs back to South America along with Jaguars, sloths, prehensile tailed New World Monkeys, Armadillos, Alpacas, Llamas, as well as a million species of South American insects? (A fourth of all species live in the Amazon Basin.) How did they get the 9 types of Lemur back to Madagascar?

The amount of water needed to flood the Earths highest mountains would have to be enough to cover Mt. Everest at 29,000 plus feet or over 5 miles higher than present sea level. Can we even begin to imagine the immense quantity of water that would require? If Earth had been covered over 5 miles deep it would require 980 million cubic miles of water or 2.55 billion cubic kilometres of water. That water would have to be obtained and then carted away somehow. There are no empty spaces within the Earth for all of that water.

So, you see, it is a scientific, or really a physical impossibility that Noah�s Legend could be true. The size of the boat is far too small for the number of animals and their food supply. The gathering of the animals from all over the world and delivering them back to their places of origin would have taken many years and hundreds of ocean going vessels to accomplish that task. The obtaining and disposing of many hundred thousand or millions of cubic miles of water is impossible without divine magic, which I don�t accept.

If you postulate miracle, i.e. magic, you must show me proof that magic exists. You must prove that magic ever occurred in any time or place. Other than magic, the Noah�s Fable was not physically possible.

So much to refute the silly and morally repugnant Noah's Flood. But few Fundy apologists address the immorality of Noah's Flood. God supposedly caused the lethal flood. He deliberately in a cosmic temper tantrum, flooded the earth to an altitude of 5 miles to kill every man, woman, child, baby, newborn, and pregnant woman. In addition he killed every mammal, reptile, amphibian, and presumably bird (billions of animals.) Why? Because some human adults sinned????? Human adults sinned so he murders millions of infants, children, women, and billions of innocent animals who did what? Animal sin?? How utterly ridiculous and morally repugnant. As an argument for God it argues that God is a horrid, blood thirsty space monster, ruling tyrannically over a nightmare universe.

One should picture the drowning of a baby. The baby is held aloft by her crying mother. The waters rise above her mouth and nose. She holds her baby up for a while, then bubbles out her last air and turns blue. She collapses and the baby sinks below the water. The baby struggles to breathe, air bubbles out. Its oxygen level drops and it turns blue (cyanotic), it may have convulsions, then tonic stiffness as it dies. It takes only 5 to 10 minutes depending on the temperature but it must be agonising. The baby had to die because some adult committed some sin that the horrid space monster JHWH forbad.

Fiach

gcameron · 02-23-2003, 08:14 PM

Fiach, you know you're just asking to be Woodmorapped, don't you?

Fiach · 02-23-2003, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Moses was the most active figure in Exodus and he wrote what he went through, as well as the ten commandments he receieved.

Moses couldn't have written about his own death. Someone else must have written it. Moses was an evil man. He found some of his own people with a golden calf. He then set the Levite Secret Police out to slay over 3000 men, women, and children. He killed them for the crime of changing religion. Too bad they didn't have an International Court at The Hague then to try Moses for mass murder.

Jesus was born of a virgin - Mary's account of her getting pregnant had nothing to do with Joseph whatsoever and it was prophecised 700 years earlier before Mary and Joseph were even born. And since every other prophecy has come true - that one obviously did too.

Show me the Bible verse that says a virgin named Miriam would give birth to a baby named Yeshua/Jesus. I don't know of any. If Miriam did conceive without sexual intercourse, her ova each had only 23 chromosomes, with when they duplicate a parallel row of nucleotides to reach 46 chromosomes, there would be two X chromosomes. Jesus had to be a female. Did the Bible predict a female Messiah????

500+ people witnessed Jesus' ressurection. And since many people testified to Jesus' crucifiction and since his body was in a roman guarded Tomb but wasn't in there when they opened it - only for Jesus to then be found in town in the flesh and blood talking to tons of people. And since archeologists found Jesus' supposed tomb but there are no bones left in it - he obviously was actually ressurected.

What is your evidence that 500+ people saw the alleged resurrection? The story of the crucifixion was not in the records of Pontius Pilate, while other crucifixions, lashings, grain sales etc were recorded. How come they didn't notice Jesus. If Jesus was supposed to be dead for three days, how come he was only in the alleged tomb for 38 hours? If he was crucified, he was taken down extraordinarily soon. Most lingered for two days. He may well have been in cardiogenic shock, was unconscious but not dead. Nobody mentioned that he was pulseless or apneic. He was quickly placed in a horizontal position that would allow blood flow to the brain and in a few hours he could have regained consciousness and "arose". (However the crucifixion remains an unsupported claim.) But if he did, and he arose, then he never died. He just had shock/hypotension with transient coma then recovered. Had he really died, his neurons would have underwent apoptosis in a matter of hours, nuclei disolving, cell membraines breaking down, water causing swelling turning the brain into foul smelling mush in 30 hours. With a brain of mush Jesus could not have risen, walked, talked, or stood.

What saints strolling out of their graves? Their is testimony and eyewitnesses and archeaological findings of the sites themselves where Jesus performed his miracles.

Matt: 27:50-53 "Jesus when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And Behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city and appeared to many." How come the Romans didn't notice all of this shite going one? Don't you think the compulsive records keepers, the Romans would have written extensively about Zombies or gouls walking about? Maybe an earthquake occurred in this tectonic plate boundary zone, but now walking zombies.

You're right , i don't know much about Archaeology - when did i say all this came from me? The info is from Archeaologists themselves. Now if you can't provide constructive and meaningful posts like Diana and Luiseach, please refrain from posting. I don't need you telling me im clueless and have no clue what im talking about thanks.

I also am not an archaeologist. My major problems with the alleged resurrection story are the fact that the Jews and Romans who where there didn't seem to notice all of these special effects kind of events. Those who believed it were Roman pagans years later based on second and third hand stories. It puts the whole story into question.

Fiach

Defiant Heretic · 02-23-2003, 08:53 PM

Magus55: Usually I do look up the scripture myself before posting, but I rushed it a bit there. My apologies. I have now read the applicable verses, and have responded accordingly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Mt.16:28, 23:36, 24:34

16:28 and 23:36 don�t appear to state this conclusively. Mt 24:29-31,34 does, however:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Quote:

Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. Mt.26:64, Mk.14:62.

Withdrawn. Both verses appear to be referring to the afterlife.

Quote:

Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mk.9:1, 13:30
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Leading up to these verses, Jesus is telling the signs that will precede his second coming and the generation that sees those signs is that one that won't pass till He returns. Generation can also mean race/people speaking of the Jews that won't see Israel destroyed before Jesus' second coming. We are most likely that generation he is speaking of that will see his second coming. The fighting in the middle east are some of the signs.

Mk 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
I also disagree with your interpretation of Mk 13:30. There is nothing to suggest he�s using an alternate definition of 'generation'.

Now for some of the verses you didn�t comment on:

Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Jos.10:12-13
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mk.16:17-18
Joshua 8:28 And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, [even] a desolation unto this day.
Nehemiah 7:7 Who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah. The number, [I say], of the men of the people of Israel [was this];
Nehemiah 7:32 The men of Bethel and Ai, an hundred twenty and three.
Isaiah 19:5-6 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.
And they shall turn the rivers far away; [and] the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 09:07 PM

To Fiach:

Moses wrote his accounts as they were happening - his last book was Deuteronomy - Joshua wrote the next book.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

With a brain of mush? We are discussing Jesus' divinity - i hardly thing a destroyed body is difficult for God to make new again.

The earthquake is comfirmed by the Talmud and the bodies rising up were ressurected believers - not zombies. And the Romans did witness it and declared Jesus the Son of God.

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 09:24 PM

Defiant you are right in reguards to Generation - it can mean race/people based on Greek translation - more than likely Jesus is referring to the generation that will witness the signs before his second coming ( supposedly us).

Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Jos.10:12-13

No contradiction here. God performed a miracle on behalf of joshua by keeping the day from ending so that Israel could have victory before dark.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mk.16:17-18

Jesus, after his ressurection, is giving the aspostles and disciples a command to go and confess the Lord to others and he gives them divine protection.

Joshua 8:28 And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, [even] a desolation unto this day.
Nehemiah 7:7 Who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah. The number, [I say], of the men of the people of Israel [was this];
Nehemiah 7:32 The men of Bethel and Ai, an hundred twenty and three.
This is God showing Israel the complete victory over their enemy.

Isaiah 19:5-6 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.
And they shall turn the rivers far away; [and] the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither
War over Egypt

02-23-2003, 08:00 PM	#65
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	Is it lying or true ignorance? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55 There is evidence of the flood, there are other written accounts by other civilizations existing when the flood happened. There is evidence that the flood could not have happened. The fact is that certain animals are found only in certain isolated location. For example, Kangaroos have never been found outside of Australia and New Guinea. Certain species of fresh water fish have been found nowhere outside of the Amazon Basin. Lemurs are only on the Island of Madascar in the last 20 million years. Emus, Koalas, Marsupial wolves, wombats, and marsupial lions are found only in Australia. Many other animals while on the Eurasian mainland are found only at great distances from Palestine, Mt. Ararat, and Mesopotamia. These include: polar bears, tapirs, aardvarks, Meercats, Irish Elk, Reindeer/Caribou, Moose, the Ice loving Macaques of Northern Japan. There are a few thousand other animals found far from Mesopotamia. These represent animals never found in Mesopotamia/Ararat. How did Noah and his sons gather all of these animals from the far reaches of the left and right hemispheres and polar areas? How did they fit in the approximately 3.8 million species into the Ark if it was the wee little boat described in Genesis? How could they store enough food for the entire long journey aboard the tiny boat? When it landed on Mt. Ararat how did they return all of these animals back to their places of origin? How did they transport some 3000 species of delicate fresh water tropical fish back to the Amazon Basin across thousands of miles of salt sea? How did they transport the Koalas, Wallabies, Kangaroos, Wombats, Marsupial wolves, Emus, and Marsupial lions back to the island continent of Australia? How did they get South American Tapirs back to South America along with Jaguars, sloths, prehensile tailed New World Monkeys, Armadillos, Alpacas, Llamas, as well as a million species of South American insects? (A fourth of all species live in the Amazon Basin.) How did they get the 9 types of Lemur back to Madagascar? The amount of water needed to flood the Earths highest mountains would have to be enough to cover Mt. Everest at 29,000 plus feet or over 5 miles higher than present sea level. Can we even begin to imagine the immense quantity of water that would require? If Earth had been covered over 5 miles deep it would require 980 million cubic miles of water or 2.55 billion cubic kilometres of water. That water would have to be obtained and then carted away somehow. There are no empty spaces within the Earth for all of that water. So, you see, it is a scientific, or really a physical impossibility that Noah�s Legend could be true. The size of the boat is far too small for the number of animals and their food supply. The gathering of the animals from all over the world and delivering them back to their places of origin would have taken many years and hundreds of ocean going vessels to accomplish that task. The obtaining and disposing of many hundred thousand or millions of cubic miles of water is impossible without divine magic, which I don�t accept. If you postulate miracle, i.e. magic, you must show me proof that magic exists. You must prove that magic ever occurred in any time or place. Other than magic, the Noah�s Fable was not physically possible. The fact is that certain animals are found only in certain isolated location. For example, Kangaroos have never been found outside of Australia and New Guinea. Certain species of fresh water fish have been found nowhere outside of the Amazon Basin. Lemurs are only on the Island of Madascar in the last 20 million years. Emus, Koalas, Marsupial wolves, wombats, and marsupial lions are found only in Australia. Many other animals while on the Eurasian mainland are found only at great distances from Palestine, Mt. Ararat, and Mesopotamia. These include: polar bears, tapirs, aardvarks, Meercats, Irish Elk, Reindeer/Caribou, Moose, the Ice loving Macaques of Northern Japan. There are a few thousand other animals found far from Mesopotamia. These represent animals never found in Mesopotamia/Ararat. How did Noah and his sons gather all of these animals from the far reaches of the left and right hemispheres and polar areas? How did they fit in the approximately 3.8 million species into the Ark if it was the wee little boat described in Genesis? How could they store enough food for the entire long journey aboard the tiny boat? When it landed on Mt. Ararat how did they return all of these animals back to their places of origin? How did they transport some 3000 species of delicate fresh water tropical fish back to the Amazon Basin across thousands of miles of salt sea? How did they transport the Koalas, Wallabies, Kangaroos, Wombats, Marsupial wolves, Emus, and Marsupial lions back to the island continent of Australia? How did they get South American Tapirs back to South America along with Jaguars, sloths, prehensile tailed New World Monkeys, Armadillos, Alpacas, Llamas, as well as a million species of South American insects? (A fourth of all species live in the Amazon Basin.) How did they get the 9 types of Lemur back to Madagascar? The amount of water needed to flood the Earths highest mountains would have to be enough to cover Mt. Everest at 29,000 plus feet or over 5 miles higher than present sea level. Can we even begin to imagine the immense quantity of water that would require? If Earth had been covered over 5 miles deep it would require 980 million cubic miles of water or 2.55 billion cubic kilometres of water. That water would have to be obtained and then carted away somehow. There are no empty spaces within the Earth for all of that water. So, you see, it is a scientific, or really a physical impossibility that Noah�s Legend could be true. The size of the boat is far too small for the number of animals and their food supply. The gathering of the animals from all over the world and delivering them back to their places of origin would have taken many years and hundreds of ocean going vessels to accomplish that task. The obtaining and disposing of many hundred thousand or millions of cubic miles of water is impossible without divine magic, which I don�t accept. If you postulate miracle, i.e. magic, you must show me proof that magic exists. You must prove that magic ever occurred in any time or place. Other than magic, the Noah�s Fable was not physically possible. So much to refute the silly and morally repugnant Noah's Flood. But few Fundy apologists address the immorality of Noah's Flood. God supposedly caused the lethal flood. He deliberately in a cosmic temper tantrum, flooded the earth to an altitude of 5 miles to kill every man, woman, child, baby, newborn, and pregnant woman. In addition he killed every mammal, reptile, amphibian, and presumably bird (billions of animals.) Why? Because some human adults sinned????? Human adults sinned so he murders millions of infants, children, women, and billions of innocent animals who did what? Animal sin?? How utterly ridiculous and morally repugnant. As an argument for God it argues that God is a horrid, blood thirsty space monster, ruling tyrannically over a nightmare universe. One should picture the drowning of a baby. The baby is held aloft by her crying mother. The waters rise above her mouth and nose. She holds her baby up for a while, then bubbles out her last air and turns blue. She collapses and the baby sinks below the water. The baby struggles to breathe, air bubbles out. Its oxygen level drops and it turns blue (cyanotic), it may have convulsions, then tonic stiffness as it dies. It takes only 5 to 10 minutes depending on the temperature but it must be agonising. The baby had to die because some adult committed some sin that the horrid space monster JHWH forbad. Fiach

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02-23-2003, 07:22 PM	#62
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Vorko, sorry i'm not even gonna bother since you are just taking all my statements and saying Nope didn't happen without any evidence on your own part disproving it. Diana, i posted links because i don't feel like writing a dissertation on the points im trying to make - the links i provided answer the questions you are bringing up but they are already layed out. Iv'e given alot of points and evidence, too much to cover in a week let alone a few days. The link i posted that you chose not to read talks about non-biblical recordings of his death and ressurection - including roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus, and Pliny and Jewish writings from Josephus and the Talmud. There are also cites to 39 ancient writings outside the Bible describing and attesting to Jesus' death and ressurection, including 17 non Christian ones. They witness to many specific details of Jesus' life, ressurection and death. Probably more historical writings witnessing it than there are for Columbus. So you can't possibly follow your methods of believing in people like Columbus and completely admiss the numerous records of Jesus. Thats illogical. And the apostles weren't martyrs just for what they believed, they were martyred for what they saw and wrote first hand. Islamic suicide bombers don't kill themselves for what they witness firsthand - they kill themselves because Allah tells them to. Jesus never said " Apostles - go see the wonders i have shown you and go be killed! How many atheists seriously do extensive research into Christianity before dismissing it? I've present numerous arguments, evidencial proofs, testimonies, eyewitness accounts, and archaeological findings to the validity of the Bible and Jesus. Yet you don't even take a second glance at them before dismissing them as being invalid. The only thing left to prove it is for God to stand before you and say Hi!. Of course his holiness is so profound and radiant you would literally die by looking upon him so don't think that would work anyway. In summary: Many Many accounts of people both inside and outside the Bible, for and against give written accounts of Jesus' life, death and ressurection. You can't claim any other human existed if you can't even acknowledge all the claims for Jesus. Jesus fulfilled prophecies so astronomical it would be impossible for any other mortal human to do so. And the odds of 1 out of 10 to the 157th are only for fulling 48 prophecies!! there are 252 more! Archeologists have found evidence to biblical people, events, and accounts. The accuracy of the copies of the Bible are nearly perfect. More so than any other written historical document ever found. No scientist has ever been able to disprove the Bibles accounts and accuracy. David said how Jesus would die, in detail before Crucifixtion was even invented. The sites of Jesus' miracles were found by Archaeologists just as it says in the Bible. The original OT and NT have been copied 5600 times yet all copies are accurate to any other copy with a max error of less than 1% ( and remember - the copies were over a long span of time and they didn't have Xerox back then). Romans and Jews historically keep the most sound records in history and neither have any record that said Jesus was forever laid in his tomb because when the guards that were guarding his tomb went in to see the body - it wasn't there - amazing how a thin, brutally beaten, starved, suffocated, nearly bloodless man moved a massive stone to sneak past guards without ever being seen only to end up in town in perfect health. And im sure there is more i'm not thinking of. Apparently you can accept some historical accounts but not others just because you don't like the controversial one. Like you, i wasn't really big on religion when i was younger ( was never an atheist but would go so far as to say i may have been agnostic) and i did extensive studying and i can't accept myself as a person by denying all the evidence iv'e seen.

02-23-2003, 07:29 PM	#64
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Dark_ Heretic - how are those disproving the Bible? The person who wrote the skeptics Bible is just stating things that he doesn't understand in context or that can't be proven by science. The last 3 lines of your quote about Jesus don't disprove anything - those prophecies haven't been fullfilled yet - Jesus hasn't come a second time. Here are the last 3 statements in full context. (red is the skeptics twist of it). Some of them you also have to read further to get there full meaning. Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Mt.16:28, 23:36, 24:34 .Mt.16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. This is referring to Jesus ressurection thats going to happen soon. He is telling the aspotles that He will ascend into the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. Mt.26:64, Mk.14:62. Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. The high priest is asking Jesus if he is the son of God. Jesus told him yes but eventually you will see me sitting at the right hand of God judging you. [hereafter means eventually or to come, not in a few minutes] Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mk.9:1, 13:30 Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors. Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Leading up to these verses, Jesus is telling the signs that will precede his second coming and the generation that sees those signs is that one that won't pass till He returns. Generation can also mean race/people speaking of the Jews that won't see Israel destroyed before Jesus' second coming. We are most likely that generation he is speaking of that will see his second coming. The fighting in the middle east are some of the signs. (from blueletterbible.org) Sorry doesn't prove anything. They are taken out of context and the meanings are misunderstand, altered. All you have proven to me by these quotes are that the person whom you quoted has absolutely no clue how to read and interpret scripture.

02-23-2003, 08:14 PM	#66
gcameron Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Western U.S.A. Posts: 293	Fiach, you know you're just asking to be Woodmorapped, don't you?

02-23-2003, 09:07 PM	#69
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	To Fiach: Moses wrote his accounts as they were happening - his last book was Deuteronomy - Joshua wrote the next book. Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. With a brain of mush? We are discussing Jesus' divinity - i hardly thing a destroyed body is difficult for God to make new again. The earthquake is comfirmed by the Talmud and the bodies rising up were ressurected believers - not zombies. And the Romans did witness it and declared Jesus the Son of God.

02-23-2003, 09:24 PM	#70
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Defiant you are right in reguards to Generation - it can mean race/people based on Greek translation - more than likely Jesus is referring to the generation that will witness the signs before his second coming ( supposedly us). Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Jos.10:12-13 No contradiction here. God performed a miracle on behalf of joshua by keeping the day from ending so that Israel could have victory before dark. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mk.16:17-18 Jesus, after his ressurection, is giving the aspostles and disciples a command to go and confess the Lord to others and he gives them divine protection. Joshua 8:28 And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, [even] a desolation unto this day. Nehemiah 7:7 Who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah. The number, [I say], of the men of the people of Israel [was this]; Nehemiah 7:32 The men of Bethel and Ai, an hundred twenty and three. This is God showing Israel the complete victory over their enemy. Isaiah 19:5-6 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up. And they shall turn the rivers far away; [and] the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither War over Egypt

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