Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ELECTROGOD · 01-29-2003, 12:40 PM

Well, if the word of religious leaders like Falwell, etc. are good enough for Bush then their mischaracterization of Atheism as being a religion should be enough to qualify us for faith-based funding...don't 'cha think?

Grad Student Humanist · 01-29-2003, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L
If we can't stop it, we darn sure ought to take advantage of it. When the religious right finds out the government is funding atheist organizations, we'll see how much they like their "faith-based" initiatives.

Definitely. This would serve two purposes. 1) It might make the fundies rethink their idea and eliminate the program completely.
2) Even if the program isn't eliminated, it would be a nice ironic twist to have the fundies paying to construct Freethought churches. Of course, I would also encourage Satanists, Wiccans, and worshipers of every other god/goddess/pantheon to come forward as well and have the government validate their religion by building them a nice shiny new temple.

Novowels · 01-29-2003, 01:15 PM

don't quote me on this, but hasn't Bush already said that he doesn't consider Wicca a "real" religion during one of the religion-in-the-military snafus? of course, this still would depend on the wording of the document, but you can bet that if the Religious Right can work some language to the effect of "if it doesn't bring glory to the One True God[tm], then it is not religion and doesn't get any $$$" they damn well will try.

capnkirk · 01-29-2003, 02:07 PM

I'm generally not a hard-liner on establishment clause issues; that is, I don't see the clear violation in many, if not most, of the currently contested or recently decided cases. I don't even have a particular problem with the "concept" of FBI. That people who are there because they WANT to be (private sector charity/welfare) do a much better job than those who HAVE to be (public sector) has been well demonstrated, even when those private sector organizations are faith-based.

The problems with features of FBI as presented here are distressing, even to someone as soft on the issue as I am! Before I read the particulars, my impression was of subsidizing organizations like Salvation Army, and the Good Hope Mission (homless shelter), maybe even Alcoholics Anonymous. That is, organizations that while having integral theistis themes, constituted stand-alone entities...not this home/office BS. The line of separation needs to be a lot clearer than that!

I suspect that if these particulars were widely known, that support for FBI would largely vanish!

Go spread it on internet!

clark · 01-29-2003, 02:50 PM

Make sure you add your comments to HUD's message board set up for comments on it: http://chatwrite.hud.gov/offices/fbc...fbciboard.html

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

Dingus · 01-30-2003, 04:46 AM

Any time a religious organization would receive monies from our

(USA)

government they permit the overseeing by the government to

ensure the purpose of the money is NOT for the purpose of

promoting the actual religion. Right?

If I were on the faith-based side, I'd refuse that money for it is

limited in it's use and God is not in control.

capnkirk · 01-30-2003, 06:26 AM

Can't you just imagine the consternation and outrage of the fundies a few years from now...when the gov't side of their partnership passes into the hands of a Democrat President?

Just imagine such a program in Bill Clinton's hands! ...or Hillary's.

Gov't overseeing FUNDAMENTALIST churches!!!! It would almost be worth it to see that!

SLD · 01-30-2003, 06:51 AM

Yeah, you just gotta love it. Another Lawyer's Full Employment Act. We could have a field day filing 1983 actions against churches who "dare" to have grace before a government funded meal. Satanists and Atheists could make a lot of money suing the government bureaucrats who deny them their funding. It would be a lot of fun. The best part being, plenty of attorney fees.

I'd also love to see the fundy's reaction to a government funded soup kitchen put out by a Satanic Cult where all the Satanists dish out the soup with a smile and a "Give your Soul to Satan and he will save you from your drug addictions and your homelessness." I can just see the fundy faces now.

Perhaps the best thing we can do for separation of church and state is to let the wall down for just a little bit and then watch the fundys desparately try to put it back up.

ELECTROGOD · 01-30-2003, 10:43 AM

I have visions of the Pink Floyd fundi.

admice · 01-30-2003, 03:12 PM

It's also been suggested to write your congresspersons. Here are some links.

www.senate.gov

www.house.gov

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01-29-2003, 12:40 PM	#21
ELECTROGOD Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: GR, MI USA Posts: 4,009	Well, if the word of religious leaders like Falwell, etc. are good enough for Bush then their mischaracterization of Atheism as being a religion should be enough to qualify us for faith-based funding...don't 'cha think?

01-29-2003, 01:15 PM	#23
Novowels Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,658	don't quote me on this, but hasn't Bush already said that he doesn't consider Wicca a "real" religion during one of the religion-in-the-military snafus? of course, this still would depend on the wording of the document, but you can bet that if the Religious Right can work some language to the effect of "if it doesn't bring glory to the One True God[tm], then it is not religion and doesn't get any $$$" they damn well will try.

01-29-2003, 02:07 PM	#24
capnkirk Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: where no one has gone before Posts: 735	I'm generally not a hard-liner on establishment clause issues; that is, I don't see the clear violation in many, if not most, of the currently contested or recently decided cases. I don't even have a particular problem with the "concept" of FBI. That people who are there because they WANT to be (private sector charity/welfare) do a much better job than those who HAVE to be (public sector) has been well demonstrated, even when those private sector organizations are faith-based. The problems with features of FBI as presented here are distressing, even to someone as soft on the issue as I am! Before I read the particulars, my impression was of subsidizing organizations like Salvation Army, and the Good Hope Mission (homless shelter), maybe even Alcoholics Anonymous. That is, organizations that while having integral theistis themes, constituted stand-alone entities...not this home/office BS. The line of separation needs to be a lot clearer than that! I suspect that if these particulars were widely known, that support for FBI would largely vanish! Go spread it on internet!

01-29-2003, 02:50 PM	#25
clark Beloved Deceased Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sin City, NV, USA Posts: 3,715	Make sure you add your comments to HUD's message board set up for comments on it: http://chatwrite.hud.gov/offices/fbc...fbciboard.html THOUGHTfully Yours, Clark

01-30-2003, 04:46 AM	#26
Dingus Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 16	Any time a religious organization would receive monies from our (USA) government they permit the overseeing by the government to ensure the purpose of the money is NOT for the purpose of promoting the actual religion. Right? If I were on the faith-based side, I'd refuse that money for it is limited in it's use and God is not in control.

01-30-2003, 06:26 AM	#27
capnkirk Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: where no one has gone before Posts: 735	Can't you just imagine the consternation and outrage of the fundies a few years from now...when the gov't side of their partnership passes into the hands of a Democrat President? Just imagine such a program in Bill Clinton's hands! ...or Hillary's. Gov't overseeing FUNDAMENTALIST churches!!!! It would almost be worth it to see that!

01-30-2003, 06:51 AM	#28
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Yeah, you just gotta love it. Another Lawyer's Full Employment Act. We could have a field day filing 1983 actions against churches who "dare" to have grace before a government funded meal. Satanists and Atheists could make a lot of money suing the government bureaucrats who deny them their funding. It would be a lot of fun. The best part being, plenty of attorney fees. I'd also love to see the fundy's reaction to a government funded soup kitchen put out by a Satanic Cult where all the Satanists dish out the soup with a smile and a "Give your Soul to Satan and he will save you from your drug addictions and your homelessness." I can just see the fundy faces now. Perhaps the best thing we can do for separation of church and state is to let the wall down for just a little bit and then watch the fundys desparately try to put it back up.

01-30-2003, 10:43 AM	#29
ELECTROGOD Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: GR, MI USA Posts: 4,009	I have visions of the Pink Floyd fundi.

01-30-2003, 03:12 PM	#30
admice Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: S Cal Posts: 327	It's also been suggested to write your congresspersons. Here are some links. www.senate.gov www.house.gov

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