Freethought & Rationalism Archive

09-05-2002, 06:23 AM

Nogo, you are talking in 21st century language. What the hell do molecules have to do with ancient myth? As you should know, anastasis is a particular Greek word used by Paul and Christians to describe the resurrection of Jesus. As far as I know, it was never used to describe the reconstitution of Osiris prior to the Christian era. Perhaps you know better.

To make the case for parallels between paganism and Christianity you must show:

a) there is a specific one to one correspondence between the pagan and Christian doctrine or myth. Use of universal religious language is not enough.
b) that the paganism came first. So that on the front of the Jesus Myteries is not evidence as it is third century AD.
c) that the much stronger Jewish connection cannot work in that case - hence the virgin birth is more likely to come from the Septuagint than paganism.
d) that Christians could be expected to know about the pagan forerunner. Hence a crucified hero from Sumer from 2000BC does not count.

As I have repeatedly said, Christianity formed in a particular enviroment and was coloured by it. But it grew out of Judaism with the work of Jesus and Paul. Paganism did not specifically form the doctrines or mythic history of Christianity.

Yours

Bede

Dr S · 09-05-2002, 08:47 AM

I can't help but notice that the Christians still call their day of Jesus resurrection "Easter."
It's pretty hard to claim that your resurrection is unique when you keep the Hellenistic goddess of resurrection's name on your holy day.
Depending on where you went in the classical world her name was Easter (goddess of the dawn-the direction is named for her), Ishtar, Hathor, Cybele, Venus-Aphrodite. Her son/consort was killed (usually by a boar, but not always) and after he lay dead for three days (the amount of time the moon is new) she brought him back to life. His names were Adonis, Dumuzi, Attis, and occasionally Dionysos. She brought him back to life on the first day of spring. At dawn (her time) on that day her high mass was held in Rome. The morning star (the planet Venus) represents the goddess Easter.

I think that if Christians want to lay claim to one-and-only-resurrection-that-is-nothing-like-anything-in-the-Hellenistic-Calendar they should have the decency to drop the "false" goddess name. And maybe get rid of all those statues of Mary holding the dead JC in her lap that are copies of the Classical ones of Ishtar while they are at it.

Layman · 09-05-2002, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr S:
I can't help but notice that the Christians still call their day of Jesus resurrection "Easter."
It's pretty hard to claim that your resurrection is unique when you keep the Hellenistic goddess of resurrection's name on your holy day.

Rather than noting what is "still" done, perhaps you could offer something relevant by pointing out when Christians first began to use that name for their holiday?

Dr S · 09-05-2002, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman:

perhaps you could offer something relevant by pointing out when Christians first began to use that name for their holiday?

The earliest use of the name Easter for the holiday by the Christians that I can find is 325 CE when they set the date for it. Of course their records before then are strangely sparse so it is difficult to know when they started calling it that.
The Pagans, however, had celebrated the ressurection on Easter in Rome for hundreds of years before there were any Christians.

It just seems pretty arrogant to claim that Easter is a false goddess and then keep her name for their main holiday.
At least they changed the savior Mithra's birthday name to Christmas.

Wyz_sub10 · 09-05-2002, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aerik Von:
They feel as if Revalations is a HISTORY book, not a future tale.

I would argue that Revelation is a metaphorical text dealing with the current times (not now, but when it was written). It is neither historical for the period, nor a future tale. By that's just MHO.

Layman · 09-05-2002, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr S:


The earliest use of the name Easter for the holiday by the Christians that I can find is 325 CE when they set the date for it. Of course their records before then are strangely sparse so it is difficult to know when they started calling it that.
The Pagans, however, had celebrated the ressurection on Easter in Rome for hundreds of years before there were any Christians.

It just seems pretty arrogant to claim that Easter is a false goddess and then keep her name for their main holiday.
At least they changed the savior Mithra's birthday name to Christmas.

Well, the question is not whether Christians have any place using the name Easter in their celebration. The fact that they did not do so until close to 300 years after the origin of their faith certainly diminishes any argument that the pagan story of Easter was in any way the source of the Christian claim of Jesus' resurrection.

Amen-Moses · 09-05-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr S:
At least they changed the savior Mithra's birthday name to Christmas.

I'd just like to point out that it wasn't Mithra's real birthday either, the legions bringing the Mithra cult back from Persia chose the same day as the Sol Victa cult purely because it was already a holiday! I would not be surprised to find that the Romans got the idea of 25th Dec for a holiday from the Greeks who in turn got it from the Egyptians.

Amen-Moses

Dr S · 09-05-2002, 10:14 AM

It is difficult to claim the equinoxs as your holy days of birth and rebirth and then try to make everyone believe that you are the first to ever do so. But if you are intent to pull the wool of a new god over peoples eyes at least get rid of the name of the old goddess first. Jeeze, how dumb do they think we are? (Don't answer that)

joedad · 09-05-2002, 10:36 AM

Bede,

Thanks for the clarification.

My response was prompted in part by your failure to capitalize the word pagan, which I admit doesn't really admit to much of a distinction, but that you do this in the same sentence where you capitalize judaism, just caught my attention. I myself regularly do not capitalize words like christian, and my offline editor keeps telling me that it should be capitalized. It seems to think that pagan is just fine without the capitalization, so I think this negative cultural prejudice is still alive and well, unfortunately.

I just find it strange that you academically view pagan and christian religions in the same non-derogatory sense, yet capitalize one set and not the other. Maybe the distinction should be made not as christian/pagan, but as biblical/pagan. There, even Microsoft Word agrees with me now!

No need to respond as I think we've already digressed far enough from the thrust of a very interesting thread.

joe

Dr S · 09-05-2002, 10:38 AM

(L) The fact that they did not do so until close to 300 years after the origin of their faith certainly diminishes any argument that the pagan story of Easter was in any way the source of the Christian claim of Jesus' resurrection.
(S) That makes no sense at all. The holiday was called Easter long before there were Christians. It celebrates resurrection. It uses the same symbolism, right down to the Easter sun rise service (goddess of the dawn--morning star).
To claim that a myth that recurs again and again -- Easter, Ishtar, Hathor, Cybele, Inanna, Venus, Aphrodite, Mary (the Galatian goddess)-is a myth every single time it is said to happen EXCEPT for when it happens to your boy, is just silly. The resurrections always occurred on the first of spring or the first full moon thereafter. They had to because it was the day of the goddess.
Jesus just happened to be resurrected on that same day�gee what are the odds? (364 to 1) How convenient�they kept the goddesses colored eggs too.

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09-05-2002, 06:23 AM	#101
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Nogo, you are talking in 21st century language. What the hell do molecules have to do with ancient myth? As you should know, anastasis is a particular Greek word used by Paul and Christians to describe the resurrection of Jesus. As far as I know, it was never used to describe the reconstitution of Osiris prior to the Christian era. Perhaps you know better. To make the case for parallels between paganism and Christianity you must show: a) there is a specific one to one correspondence between the pagan and Christian doctrine or myth. Use of universal religious language is not enough. b) that the paganism came first. So that on the front of the Jesus Myteries is not evidence as it is third century AD. c) that the much stronger Jewish connection cannot work in that case - hence the virgin birth is more likely to come from the Septuagint than paganism. d) that Christians could be expected to know about the pagan forerunner. Hence a crucified hero from Sumer from 2000BC does not count. As I have repeatedly said, Christianity formed in a particular enviroment and was coloured by it. But it grew out of Judaism with the work of Jesus and Paul. Paganism did not specifically form the doctrines or mythic history of Christianity. Yours Bede

09-05-2002, 08:47 AM	#102
Dr S Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 106	I can't help but notice that the Christians still call their day of Jesus resurrection "Easter." It's pretty hard to claim that your resurrection is unique when you keep the Hellenistic goddess of resurrection's name on your holy day. Depending on where you went in the classical world her name was Easter (goddess of the dawn-the direction is named for her), Ishtar, Hathor, Cybele, Venus-Aphrodite. Her son/consort was killed (usually by a boar, but not always) and after he lay dead for three days (the amount of time the moon is new) she brought him back to life. His names were Adonis, Dumuzi, Attis, and occasionally Dionysos. She brought him back to life on the first day of spring. At dawn (her time) on that day her high mass was held in Rome. The morning star (the planet Venus) represents the goddess Easter. I think that if Christians want to lay claim to one-and-only-resurrection-that-is-nothing-like-anything-in-the-Hellenistic-Calendar they should have the decency to drop the "false" goddess name. And maybe get rid of all those statues of Mary holding the dead JC in her lap that are copies of the Classical ones of Ishtar while they are at it.

09-05-2002, 10:14 AM	#108
Dr S Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 106	It is difficult to claim the equinoxs as your holy days of birth and rebirth and then try to make everyone believe that you are the first to ever do so. But if you are intent to pull the wool of a new god over peoples eyes at least get rid of the name of the old goddess first. Jeeze, how dumb do they think we are? (Don't answer that)

09-05-2002, 10:36 AM	#109
joedad Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: PA USA Posts: 5,039	Bede, Thanks for the clarification. My response was prompted in part by your failure to capitalize the word pagan, which I admit doesn't really admit to much of a distinction, but that you do this in the same sentence where you capitalize judaism, just caught my attention. I myself regularly do not capitalize words like christian, and my offline editor keeps telling me that it should be capitalized. It seems to think that pagan is just fine without the capitalization, so I think this negative cultural prejudice is still alive and well, unfortunately. I just find it strange that you academically view pagan and christian religions in the same non-derogatory sense, yet capitalize one set and not the other. Maybe the distinction should be made not as christian/pagan, but as biblical/pagan. There, even Microsoft Word agrees with me now! No need to respond as I think we've already digressed far enough from the thrust of a very interesting thread. joe

09-05-2002, 10:38 AM	#110
Dr S Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 106	(L) The fact that they did not do so until close to 300 years after the origin of their faith certainly diminishes any argument that the pagan story of Easter was in any way the source of the Christian claim of Jesus' resurrection. (S) That makes no sense at all. The holiday was called Easter long before there were Christians. It celebrates resurrection. It uses the same symbolism, right down to the Easter sun rise service (goddess of the dawn--morning star). To claim that a myth that recurs again and again -- Easter, Ishtar, Hathor, Cybele, Inanna, Venus, Aphrodite, Mary (the Galatian goddess)-is a myth every single time it is said to happen EXCEPT for when it happens to your boy, is just silly. The resurrections always occurred on the first of spring or the first full moon thereafter. They had to because it was the day of the goddess. Jesus just happened to be resurrected on that same day�gee what are the odds? (364 to 1) How convenient�they kept the goddesses colored eggs too.

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