himynameisPwn

Best....
Death......
EVER!

lpetrich

I asked whether Mother Teresa had worked the sort of miracles attributed to Jesus Christ, the early Apostles, and some noted saints of previous centuries.

Gemma dearest, it's an important question. Why have miracles become much rarer and much smaller in the present day than in previous centuries?

Was there an Age of Miracles that is now gone?

Or did none of those miracles really happen as described?

lpetrich

I agree that that might qualify as a miracle. However, the Vatican does not seem to be very interested in recognizing that type of miracle.

rdalin

If sanctification were based on that sort of miracle we'd have St. P.T. Barnum.

Radorth

quote:
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Originally posted by lpetrich
Hmmm. Very interesting. But I have a puzzler for Gemma Therese.

Consider the miracles of the Bible and the miracles worked by medieval saints. And consider the miracles worked by present-day would-be saints like Mother Teresa. Why have medieval saints worked much bigger miracles than present-day ones?

Did Mother Teresa ever ...

Cure blindness?
Drive out demons?
Raise the dead?
Induce blindness in someone who stole from her?
Zap Missionaries of Charity employees for keeping too much for themselves?
Zap an out-of-season fruit tree?
Point out a monster-infested tree?
Calm storms?
Desalinate seawater?
Recharge batteries?
Have a crab bring her a lost crucifix?
Have the Gift of Tongues, fluently speaking several languages without having to learn them?
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These gifts were pretty much all transferred to Protestants by 1906.

Rad

lpetrich

I wonder how Radorth arrives at that precise time.

And given that date, such miracles ought to be readily documentable. But where are the well-documented examples of miracles comparable to Biblical and medieval-saint miracles?

Yes, I mean things like cutting down trees to reveal monsters, walking on water, zapping barren fruit trees, crabs bringing back lost crucifixes, batteries mysteriously recharging, etc.

Vorkosigan

These gifts were pretty much all transferred to Protestants by 1906.

I wonder how Radorth arrives at that precise time.

The year the Schofield Reference Bible, the 20th century's best-selling work in the US, came out.

Vorkosigan

Sabine Grant

hello Ipetrich! the point you raised is very important. Can there be any historical credibility given to the facts described in the 4 Gospels as well as the early church practices presented by Paul?

I am certainly not one to offer evidence that there is historical credibility but I can only give you my opinion on those. Please keep in mind that my opinion is subjective as I am a christian.

Given that I consider Christ to be divine, I do not question the possibility of his making miracles. The intent behind those miracles is what I am interrested in exploring. I see no connection between Christ using his ministry to reach people and improve their condition and what the catholic church defines as miracles today. There should be no need for any christian today to feed on signs and miracles to cultivate faith. That it is a disguised way for certain denominations to prove " hey.. we got it all... see God is making miracles for us... we are the only true blablabla" I am certain of.

The speaking in tongues is often used as the true demonstration that the Holy Spirit is indeed dwelling in christians....the fact is that it is listed as one of the least important spiritual gifts by Paul himself. He emphasizes charity ( love) as the leading demonstration that a believer is indeed connected to the Spirit of God. In other words, no matter what type of supernatural gift or demonstration occurs, it has to be led by the love for others otherwise it has no spiritual meaning.

Christ's miracles touched people in the midst of their worst condition. His focus was to modify those conditions. They had a productive effect on those individuals. Today , christians can rely on the principle of " loving their neighbor as they love themselves" to effectively modify those conditions in others. One can feed a homeless man without any supernatural intervention. The willingness to do it is the miracle. Our willingness to be available and flexible to circumstances is the miracle.

Even if Christ never did any miracles, one can still comprehend the message between the words " love your neighbor as you love yourself". One can still grasp the meaning of seeking to intervene in the life of others and that out of love for other peole. Not for personal rewards, not for the quest to Heaven, not to manipulate masses to accept Christ as their savior......simply because there is that empathy and compassion for others.

That is really the only " assignment" a christian should focus on today. There is no need to be obsessed with the task that God needs christians to be glorified in any way. That very concept takes away from what a christian may understand of God's Glory.

So.. do christians need miracles today ? I guess it depends on the level of faith of each person and if they can cultivate their faith without a need" to see, touch and feel God" thru those miracles. I think that is also what makes miracles popular among some christians.... the need to be reassured thru supernatural manifestations that there is an active God capable of great things.
In reality... the need is not a justified necessity. One can find God's manifestation of his presence in the goodness of any human being. One can indulge in some degree of pantheism and meditate on God's character of a Creator thru nature. One can sense God without any supernatural intervention.

Radorth

[Quote]I wonder how Radorth arrives at that precise time.

And given that date, such miracles ought to be readily documentable. But where are the well-documented examples of miracles comparable to Biblical and medieval-saint miracles?

Yes, I mean things like cutting down trees to reveal monsters, walking on water, zapping barren fruit trees, crabs bringing back lost crucifixes, batteries mysteriously recharging, etc.
[Quote]

The time came from the manifestations at the Asusa Street revival, but I really wasn't claiming all those things, as I hoped the "toothy grin" smiley would communicate. My personal belief is that miracles went out with Jesus and the apostles, (with some exceptions) and that God used them to establish their authority. I have only seen one bonafide miracle in my life- the healing of a stone deaf boy, and I have only seen the Shekinah Glory one time. My faith is hardly based on those, although they do tend to bolster it.

I also believe God worked all sorts of miracles for the Israelites, and it had absolutely no effect on their character or tendency to whine anyway. Therefore I do not think they are of much use to God's ultimate plans and purposes.

Rad

Radorth

Good post Bill.

I sometimes find myself wishing you could come over for a beer. Perhaps you could help me backslide completely.

Rad