James Hamlin

The principal of my high school has been coming around to all of the advanced placement (AP) classes wishing us all luck on our exams in the next to weeks and suggesting we support eachother. The tests are being held at the school library, the city library, and an adjacent Catholic church's parish hall. First of all, is this constitutional? Although the college board is a private organization, we as public school students are obliged to take the test at this religious location if we are to receive the benefits of the class and the possible college credit.

But this is what really pisses me off. In closing his message the principal said something to this effect (after mentioning the religious test location):

"People are always talking about the separation of church and state. Well, I've never started a test without bowing my head and saying, 'God, please help me through this.'"
Then he walked out.

I felt sick. I haven't said anything, but I think he was out of line on two counts. One, he waved off separation of church and state as if it was unimortant. Two, obviously, is his comment on his prayer before a test.

Any comments?

faust

re: the adjacent catholic building for testing, I had to take the SAT in a catholic school 60 mi away b/c no other location was closer. I didn't really care. Just a building to me, there was no pressure and i could have driven further to find a public school hosting it.

Now about the principal... I don't know where to start :banghead:
Let me make sure I've got this right, you're in public school. You were in an AP class in a classroom in this public school when the principal came by and made that comment. It was addressed to the students in your class (not a comment to a teacher or something). Am I with you so far?


Assuming this is the case (and I have no reason to think you're lying) you should most certainly bring this to attention. Talk to your parents if they know and support your beliefs. Talk to the guidance counselor and relate what happened. Call up the superintendant of the school system (I always advocated just showing up at their office, they stall, but they usually won't turn away a young high school student with a problem).
That is disgusting. Your principal can walk around praying to the left brick on the walkway as his god all he wants, but a comment like that, in a public school, from a public school teacher... well, it makes me want to vomit.

Then again, I'm the sort of person who would have stood up and said "Well, god damnit, if you've never started a test w/o bowing your head and asking for god's help, then i'm already 5 mins ahead of you filling in blanks."

The most sickening thing about it is that he is in a position of authority and persuasion over young, more fearful, students, and he is pressing his personal beliefs in an illegal and coercive way.

I say f him. Call his bluff. Get some witnesses statements, demand cash. This was detrimental to your testing ability. In a few years you will have wished you had done something more to protest this action, i wish i had. Make your time.

Toto

Having the tests at the parish hall is probably ok. It's just a location, and it's not the sanctuary or chapel - they probably hold Bingo games there. If there were a lot of pervasive religious imagery that interfered with your test, it might be another matter.

As for your principal, he doesn't understand separation of church and state. (A private prayer before a test has nothing to do with separation of church and state. It is also not very effective, compared to studying.)

I'd say your principal is an idiot. But there's not much you can do about it except do well on your tests and get on with your life, so you can later write him a letter explaining why what he said was wrong.

James Hamlin

Thanks for the comments so far. I don't have too much of a problem with the location. I actually used to attend this particular Catholic chuch before my deconversion. I think the only religious imagery in there is a crucifix. They sell pizza cheap there during lunch to trick high school kids into listening to their crap.

I posted in this forum instead of activism because I'm not planning on making too big a deal about it. Maybe a letter to him or the district administration so I don't feel like I did nothing. The principal is a good guy and he has done a lot for the school, but this is not in his job description. I just wanted to unload here. Damn did that piss me off. No one in my class gave a damn, and I just ended up mumbling profanities to myself.

joedad

Consider the fact that your principal was born about the time McCarthyism was incorporated into the Pledge, and maybe you'll be able to cut him some slack. But what he did was definitely wrong.

If he's a decent enough guy, he'll appreciate things from your perspective and probably stop doing it, if you let him know. I wouldn't have the conversation after a couple cans of Jolt, though.

joe

MaximusDementis

Well, I don't see anything wrong with either of those things. One uses what buildings one can. Christian's are a part of the landscape over here. Just be damn glad we are not a Muslim Theocracy!

Re the principal's statement: The first ammendment protects his right to say what he said. He did not force you to pray. He merely stated what he does before every test. I am an atheist myself and I, too, get tired of all the religious crap around. However, the supreme court and the constitution merely say that no one can be forced to practice a particular religion. This was a reaction to the Church Of England and to other Theocratic states in the world. Our founding father's wanted none of that over here. They wanted us to have the freedom to practice whatever religious faith or lack thereof, we wanted to.

There was no coercion here. My advice is to chuckle at your principal's mistaken belief that some god gives a crap how he does on a particular little test and move on. If you make an issue of it, you may create a martry syndrome.

The principal walked the tightrope between the first ammendment and the separation issue very well, IMO. He deserves credit for that.

I never say "under gawd" when I say the pledge. I just am quiet for that part of it.

AspenMama

Maximus-- I'm resisting the urge to correct your apostrophe usage! I agree, that the church is simply a building among others in this instance. In fact, churches are often used as voting places. However, regarding the principal's statement, I think that the principal was expressing a common mistaken belief-- that church/state separation means no religion is allowed whatsoever and that individuals are not allowed to pray on their own. I think it was wrong of him to state he did not understand the concept, and that it was wrong of him as a person in a position of authority to encourage other students to pray by his example. There was no outright coercion, true, but it was there subtly. It was highly inappropriate.

MaximusDementis

Sorry about the apostraphe thing. oops.

I think, Aspen you are splitting hairs. Let the Christian have his so called moment. He can gloat about it in Sunday School. We can just chuckle at his naive superstition. Its like those fools who think they can conteract the random factors of life with rabbit's feet.

Perhaps the prayer thing is like taking a few deep breaths or meditating on one's naval to calm the nerves. Some tests are pretty important for one's future.

You can read between the lines on his advice, and turn it around to say, "calm yourself just before taking an important test, soothe your nerves, meditate, pray, say an oath to Zeus". Then, with your calmness restored, take the test.

I find a trip to the bathroom, and a nice long voiding to be a big help. Also, I avoid any stimulants, like caffeine. Then I close my eyes and say my mantra a few hundred times and commence with the test.

AspenMama

Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. It wasn't just his private moment. The reference to not understanding church/state separation is a sticking point with me-- It is tiring to hear the constant accusations of religious discrimination, when it is very clear that each and every individual can practice religion as long as it does not require general group participation, and especially is not initiated by a person in authority. I think a good battle to be fought here would be to explain this clearly to that man.
Why is it that we, as atheists, must always "read between the lines" when it comes to such situations? The man did not say what you wrote above, and can you accurately say, that he wasn't thinking all of the students should be xians like him, or that he thinks less of students who are not xians?
Well, it's been a while since I've had that kind of test. Good advice above... but I still drink coffee like a fiend-- I used to sip it until the dawn before the test.

Buddrow_Wilson

He can believe all he wants, but when he's walking around making comments that are anti-church/state seperation in a public school, that strikes me as very wrong (putting aside that what he advocated in this instance doesn't violate css). If a school principle 1) doesn't respect CSS as a part of the foundation of our nation, 2) doesn't even comprehend what is or is not a violation and 3) Is polluting the minds of young people in a public school with this idiocy, I would call this a dangerous person, overstepping his authority and needs to be removed from his position.