Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 07-31-2003, 02:15 PM

Oh, you added something.

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
Could a god have just set up a few basic rules that govern the universe, such as fundamental forces and relative masses of particles (though these may be related to even more fundamental properties) and then just hit "go" and things like galaxies, stars, planets, and life been a consequence of those fundamental rules?

Yes, that's what I believe: creation of all mass (matter) and of the fundamental properties. A very lazy God, but a God nonetheless, with the corollaries of providing purpose and an afterlife implicit. That's what I really care about: the existence of life after death. It's my only real reason to believe in Deism. I used to be an atheist here on these forums until my fear of death overcame me.

Rhaedas · 07-31-2003, 02:46 PM

Well the jury's out on that type of god, probably indefinitely, since I doubt we could tell the difference between a god inspired big bang and a natural one. I for one don't like leaving it at that, since that does beg the question of where that god came from. I find it easier in my mind to think of an infinite universe, the big bang, whatever it was, being only a "recent" event. But that would be my "faith"...believing without evidence.

To each their own...your deism is a reasonable theist point of view. It certainly has more merit than others. And if it comforts you to believe in an afterlife without confirmation, nothing wrong with that as long as it positively influences you here.

Shadowy Man · 07-31-2003, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional

Yes, that's what I believe: creation of all mass (matter) and of the fundamental properties. A very lazy God, but a God nonetheless

No, not lazy at all! Can you imagine how much inventiveness it would take to make sure that all of those fundamental properties and rules, when left alone with the initial conditions, would eventually create intelligent life. Now that takes some effort!

Quote:

, with the corollaries of providing purpose and an afterlife implicit. That's what I really care about: the existence of life after death. It's my only real reason to believe in Deism. I used to be an atheist here on these forums until my fear of death overcame me.

Well, you just believe that because you want to. Can't really argue with that.

emotional · 07-31-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
No, not lazy at all! Can you imagine how much inventiveness it would take to make sure that all of those fundamental properties and rules, when left alone with the initial conditions, would eventually create intelligent life. Now that takes some effort!

Oh. I never thought of it that way.

SimplyAtheistic · 07-31-2003, 05:10 PM

Emotional, you are gravely mistaken on natural laws. I will repeat this again, laws describe the behavior of matter, they do not enforce it! This is the only way it can be! Any other variation would lead to inconsistencies, and thus would actually require some sort of god to influence them. So the laws of nature actually support the idea of no god. You have stated again and again that it is faith on which you base your notions of god, so I don't expect a resonable reply.
Jake

SimplyAtheistic · 07-31-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional

deleted- Jobar

Personal insults do not further your position.

Quote:

The laws of nature were set by God at Creation, 15 billion years ago.

And where is any inkling of proof for this? Laws of physics are not "set" by anyone.

Quote:

I didn't say they change. As a matter of fact I believe they are immutable, and prayer to change them doesn't work.

Exactly, so there could be no other way. If they "did" change, nothing could be what it is.

Quote:

I for one know the answer: you love feeling superior over those who have faith. In that, you are like many atheists. A rare species indeed is atheistus humilis.

I love debunking illogical statements. I will not be "nice" to you and say your ideas are ok when in reality they are no better than a christians.

Quote:

Oh yeah? I'm not the one who believes in a talking snake. I accept nearly all of science, except those parts which may hint to the absence of life after death. I use rational thought where possible - where not possible is that weakness of mine, my fear of death. Forgive me, O Rationalist, for my weakness, wilt thou? [/B]

So you are a cherry picker of science. You admit your fear and I point it out, you admit your ideas are completely faith based and yet some how you are superior to christians. You expect people to respect your ideas? You have come to the wrong board.
Jake

kubli · 08-01-2003, 02:28 AM

This seems like a good subject to make my first post.

I'm new at this so cut me some slack. I am somewhat of a mix of agnostic, atheist, and deist (actually, I don't know what I am, maybe someone can help me out). I won't call it God, but I believe that some force beyond all matter is responsible for the universe. I don't say God because there is no way I could ever know what it is, but it seems that there is a reason for everything and everything has a purpose (as trivial as that purpose may be). I agree somewhat with Emotional that the universe has a design to it and was just given that initial push. As for the afterlife, I think there is a possibility for it but I don't rely on it for some emotional reason, I'm actually perfectly fine with the possibility that there isn't. My question to the atheists, why must one have to prove the existence of God to you? I mean, everything comes from something, right? Couldn't I just as easily ask you to prove that God doesn't exist since we both really don't know?

BTW, Emotional, I can tell you must be a scientist. I am too, and the more I study science, the more I believe in the "design" you talk about.

emotional · 08-01-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JakeJohnson
Personal insults do not further your position.

deleted

Quote:

And where is any inkling of proof for this? Laws of physics are not "set" by anyone.

Oh yeah? Prove it. It's obvious the laws of nature were set by a supreme intelligence. The burden of proof is on those who deny the obvious.

Quote:

So you are a cherry picker of science.

I don't have to accept the materialist scam in toto.

Quote:

You admit your fear and I point it out, you admit your ideas are completely faith based and yet some how you are superior to christians.

Yes. I don't believe in a talking snake, and I don't believe in a chamber of eternal sadistic torture. That makes me superior to Christians.

Quote:

You expect people to respect your ideas? You have come to the wrong board.

No, I don't expect people to respect my ideas. All I come here for is to enjoy the company and share a different point of view. You atheists would be bored out of your minds if there weren't any believers on these boards.

emotional, you know the rules. I repeat, CHILL OUT. Jobar.

emotional · 08-01-2003, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JakeJohnson
Emotional, you are gravely mistaken on natural laws. I will repeat this again, laws describe the behavior of matter, they do not enforce it!

A mere semantic quibble. Why does matter behave that way? It cannot be but that their behaviour was so rigged. Call it laws or behaviour, but I can't see how it could have popped up of itself, from nothing. Our design is evolutionary, but even evolutionary design requires a designer to fire it up in the first place.

Quote:

This is the only way it can be! Any other variation would lead to inconsistencies, and thus would actually require some sort of god to influence them. So the laws of nature actually support the idea of no god.

Either that (no god), or a god of natural law, a Deistic god. I dare say the second option is more sensible.

Normal · 08-01-2003, 08:01 AM

emotional, you claimed that you couldn't provide a reasonable basis for your faith in a deistic god but I don't see how you couldn't.

The universe has a beginning.
The laws of the universe allowed for life to occur.

Aren't these two reasons good enough to form a reasonable basis for belief?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-31-2003, 02:46 PM	#42
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	Well the jury's out on that type of god, probably indefinitely, since I doubt we could tell the difference between a god inspired big bang and a natural one. I for one don't like leaving it at that, since that does beg the question of where that god came from. I find it easier in my mind to think of an infinite universe, the big bang, whatever it was, being only a "recent" event. But that would be my "faith"...believing without evidence. To each their own...your deism is a reasonable theist point of view. It certainly has more merit than others. And if it comforts you to believe in an afterlife without confirmation, nothing wrong with that as long as it positively influences you here.

07-31-2003, 05:10 PM	#45
SimplyAtheistic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 503	Emotional, you are gravely mistaken on natural laws. I will repeat this again, laws describe the behavior of matter, they do not enforce it! This is the only way it can be! Any other variation would lead to inconsistencies, and thus would actually require some sort of god to influence them. So the laws of nature actually support the idea of no god. You have stated again and again that it is faith on which you base your notions of god, so I don't expect a resonable reply. Jake

08-01-2003, 02:28 AM	#47
kubli New Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 3	This seems like a good subject to make my first post. I'm new at this so cut me some slack. I am somewhat of a mix of agnostic, atheist, and deist (actually, I don't know what I am, maybe someone can help me out). I won't call it God, but I believe that some force beyond all matter is responsible for the universe. I don't say God because there is no way I could ever know what it is, but it seems that there is a reason for everything and everything has a purpose (as trivial as that purpose may be). I agree somewhat with Emotional that the universe has a design to it and was just given that initial push. As for the afterlife, I think there is a possibility for it but I don't rely on it for some emotional reason, I'm actually perfectly fine with the possibility that there isn't. My question to the atheists, why must one have to prove the existence of God to you? I mean, everything comes from something, right? Couldn't I just as easily ask you to prove that God doesn't exist since we both really don't know? BTW, Emotional, I can tell you must be a scientist. I am too, and the more I study science, the more I believe in the "design" you talk about.

08-01-2003, 08:01 AM	#50
Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 639	emotional, you claimed that you couldn't provide a reasonable basis for your faith in a deistic god but I don't see how you couldn't. The universe has a beginning. The laws of the universe allowed for life to occur. Aren't these two reasons good enough to form a reasonable basis for belief?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.