Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bill Snedden · 06-09-2002, 07:18 PM

theophilus is most likely no longer around to respond, but this is so egregiously false it cries out for response.

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:
The only communism we know anything about is the atheistic kind and atheism, rather than being just one component,is the foundation for the system.

This blatant falsehood is either an outright lie or the result of gross ignorance.

The abolition of private property and the collective ownership of the means of production are the foundation of communism. Atheism was certainly part of Marx's dialectic, however, it is neither necessary nor sufficient to communist political structures. Anyne actually reading Marx or later communist political theorists will readily understand this.

The idea that communism is founded on atheism or somehow requires an atheistic worldview is most likely the result of failed tu quoque argumentation by apologists attempting to defend the many atrocities committed in the name of religion.

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:
The brutality of Soviet/Chinese/NKorean communists is the very outcome of their atheistic view of the individual vs the state.

This is, of course, a complete and utter load of crap. The brutality of those states is the result of the fact that they were totalitarian dictatorships that would brook no opposition to their power. Nothing to do with atheism. Actally, it's much like the kings and dictators of old who ruled by so-called "divine right".

I am amused by Christian fundamentalists like theophilus who pontificate about individual rights while at the same time believing that it's perfectly acceptable to worship a sky wizard who wields absolute power over his slaves on earth. Somehow it's just rather difficult to deal seriously with such blatant incoherence.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

NOGO · 06-10-2002, 06:52 AM

How can we qualify communism?

It is an ideology.
It held the truth and noone else.
It declared the dictatorship of this truth.
It declared all religions false and persecuted them.
It denied critcism.
It denied freedom of speech.
It denied freedom of belief.

Gee! All this sounds very much like Christianity.
... and nothing like Atheism.

FarSeeker · 06-13-2002, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alphatronics:

Rephrased: "Hitler is an atheist! If Hitler says he isn't, he must be lying! My word is over his about what he believes!!! MUHAHAHA!! BEHOLD MY SABER OF BLIND DENIAL!!

Edit: typo
[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: alphatronics ]

Once again alphatronics shows Atheists' propensity for putting words in other peoples' mouths. I am not saying Hitler was an Atheist, keep your ignorance to yourself, although alphatronics’ self-admitted blind denial is possibly at the root of it his faith in Hitler’s propaganda. Or perhaps it is simply that he hates Christians as Hitler hated Jews?

Hitler may have been a theist, but he, by is own words, was not a Christian.

You have a problem, not me. In his political speeches Hitler lied to manipulated Christians to get control of Germany. As the joke goes: how can you tell when a politician is lying? His mouth moves. That is why they call it “The Big Lie.” In private conversations, where he had no worries about manipulating public opinion, Hitler spoke of his contempt for Christianity, in both Protestant and Catholic forms. Several times Hitler even stated that he wanted to destroy Christianity, similar to words spoken by Atheists on this site.

On the other hand, Both the Catholic and Protestant Churches have rejected anti-Semitism. The Pope even spoke at a Synagogue calling Jews bothers in the faith. I am a Christian, I have no hatred of Jews. There are also Messianic Jewish congregations. So your charge of Christianity being anti-Semitic rings false. There are records of the Vatican hiding and protecting perhaps several thousands of Jews in Rome from Hitler’s minions during WW2. There are similar record to prove Protestant Christians did the same all over Europe, many dying for those actions.

No one has said that Christians are perfect. Humble admission of being a sinner and repentance of our sins are requirements by God. But you can’t blame mistakes and failures on a belief systems that openly speaks against them. Atheist, however, does not speak against anti-Semitism, if an Atheists finds that belief logical, then there is nothing wrong with it. And if you find it distasteful, that is your opinion, and your welcome to it. Another Atheist I have debated stated that morals are socially constructed. If the German people did actually accept anti-Semitism, then they were acting and thinking more like Atheists than Christians. Look up Haman in the Bible.

Esther 3:5-9

Quote:

When Haman saw that Mordecai neither bowed down nor paid homage to him, Haman was filled with rage.
But he disdained to lay hands on Mordecai alone, for they had told him who the people of Mordecai were; therefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews, the people of Mordecai, who were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus.
In the first month, which is the month Nisan, in the twelfth year of King Ahasuerus, Pur, that is the lot, was cast before Haman from day to day and from month to month, until the twelfth month, that is the month Adar.
Then Haman said to King Ahasuerus, “There is a certain people scattered and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom; their laws are different from those of all other people and they do not observe the king’s laws, so it is not in the king’s interest to let them remain.
If it is pleasing to the king, let it be decreed that they be destroyed, and I will pay ten thousand talents of silver into the hands of those who carry on the king’s business, to put into the king’s treasuries.” (NIV)

Answer this question, please:
Why did Hitler want to destroy the Jews?

P.S. Please look at what you are doing. You are vilifying Christians, just as Hitler did to the Jews: marginalizing those you hate. Your fellow Atheists on this site are attempting to follow the Marxists down the path to despotism. They have openly said they wish to marginalise Christians, like Marxists. They are attempting to find a way to imprison Christians in mental institutions, like Marxists. Official magazines representing thousands of Atheists openly talk of removing Christians from all scientific positions solely because of their religious beliefs. Few, if any, Atheists speak against these attempts at despotism. Will there be anyone left to speak up when they come for you?

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Bill Snedden · 06-13-2002, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker:
Your fellow Atheists on this site are attempting to follow the Marxists down the path to despotism. They have openly said they wish to marginalise Christians, like Marxists. They are attempting to find a way to imprison Christians in mental institutions, like Marxists. Official magazines representing thousands of Atheists openly talk of removing Christians from all scientific positions solely because of their religious beliefs. Few, if any, Atheists speak against these attempts at despotism. Will there be anyone left to speak up when they come for you?

I'm sorry, but this sounds like paranoid hyperbole to me and I certainly don't like being lumped in with a bunch of people "attempting to follow the Marxists down the path to despotism." Kinda goes against my libertarian grain!

Certainly there are atheists, including some that post at this site, that have an irrational hatred of Christians, or wish to marginalize or imprison them, but my long experience here (note my member #) does not lead me to believe that they are in the majority.

And I would like to see some references for these "atheist magazines" that "openly talk of removing Christians from all scientific positions". I read some of the more prominent "atheist" publications (Freethought Today!, Free Inquiry, Skeptic, The Skeptical Inquirer, etc), and I have never seen this advocated. Certainly there is open criticism of those who claim to be scientists yet put religious dogma before the scientific method, but I've never seen concerted advocacy of forcible removal.

I'll be the first to admit that there are atheists both here and in the world at large who are downright hostile to believers. However, I've seen and experienced hostility from believers as well. There's plenty of "blame" to go around on both sides...

Frankly, as a freethinker, I'd rather live in a Christian-controlled state that permitted free expression and the right of non-belief than an atheist-controlled state where religion was outlawed and god-belief treated as a crime. I think most of my compatriots here would agree. Most if not all of us would like to see religion disappear, but we are committed to achieving this end through reason and the free exchange of ideas, not political fiat.

Strangely enough, though, this "live and let live" ideal doesn't seem to work for fundamentalist Christians or Muslims. Your hyperbolic rant would seem to me better placed against them. Liberal theists and non-theists alike have little to fear from each other, but much to fear from the likes of Usama bin Laden and Pat Robertson.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

NOGO · 06-14-2002, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Bill
Frankly, as a freethinker, I'd rather live in a Christian-controlled state that permitted free expression and the right of non-belief than an atheist-controlled state where religion was outlawed and god-belief treated as a crime. I think most of my compatriots here would agree. Most if not all of us would like to see religion disappear, but we are committed to achieving this end through reason and the free exchange of ideas, not political fiat.

Strangely enough, though, this "live and let live" ideal doesn't seem to work for fundamentalist Christians or Muslims. Your hyperbolic rant would seem to me better placed against them. Liberal theists and non-theists alike have little to fear from each other, but much to fear from the likes of Usama bin Laden and Pat Robertson.

Well said. I would like to second that.

hinduwoman · 06-16-2002, 05:16 PM

Farseeker, you are getting paranoid. No one wants to lock up all Christians in mental institutions or marginalize them by force.
What any atheist or non-christian religion would like is to make your fundies stop shoving their agenda down everyone's throats --- they are violating the right to live and let live.

FarSeeker · 06-21-2002, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Ah yes, let me get the argument:

Whatever is done in the name of communism is done in the name of atheism since one of the components of communism is atheism.

However when devout Christians murder to spread the greater glory of Christ it is not done for christianity.

Only faith can make this argument without blushing.

So I claim, these communists were so corrupt that they do not deserve the name of atheists.

Those like yourself who post on this site consistently describe themselves only as "Atheists." Thus many of those like myself who describe ourselves as Christians simply state that you are equating yourselves with Marxists (who are defined as Atheists). Just as you equate the ideas of Nazism with those of Christ because Hitler CALLED himself a Christian.

On the otherhand...
Marxists have in no way corrupted, violated or acted in any way contrary to the definition of Atheism. But Hitler acted and spoke in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus the Christ.

So you will understand that until you flame the "Hitler was a Christian" posters as you have flamed Christians, your above argument fails.

All I am really asking is that you hold your fellow Atheists to the same standard that you demand of me.

I that too much to ask?

FarSeeker · 06-21-2002, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
If hindu religion at the core had not been practical we would not have been able to survive far less build a civilization.

I'm not well versed in Indian / Hindu history, so did thet culture go thru anything like the "Dark Ages" that Europe did?

hinduwoman

Quote:

Farseeker, you are getting paranoid. No one wants to lock up all Christians in mental institutions or marginalize them by force.
What any atheist or non-christian religion would like is to make your fundies stop shoving their agenda down everyone's throats --- they are violating the right to live and let live.

No one? Look it up, the threads are there.

Quote:

Koyaanisqatsi
posted February 09, 2002 09:06 PM

I wasn't quite sure where to post this one.
Are there any psychologists in the house? I'm interested in a serious deconstruction of the psychosis of theism.
Although our mental institutions would be packed to overflowing, why isn't belief in a god or gods considered a clinical disorder and treated accordingly? Tradition? Majority rule? By design?
It is clearly not harmless. It has caused tremendous and prolonged social divisiveness, unrest and bloodshed for centuries, up to modern times (WTC).
Your thoughts?

Mad Kally
posted February 09, 2002 09:52 PM

quote:
posted by moon:
There are plenty of sane theists, many of whom are much more intelligent, creative, caring and warm-hearted than you are.
---
There are plenty more insane theists! I worked in a mental hospital with dangerous schizophrenics. The majority of them have religious hallucinations and/or delusions. Depending of course on what ever their favorite god/cult is..
Doubting Thomas who is gone temporarily due to back surgery would certainly back me up on that! He worked with mentally ill patients in a prison. Same religious crap.
The sad part is that so many insane theists are allowed to walk around free! They are allowed to infect others with their dangerous superstitious bullshit.

Seeker196
posted February 10, 2002 03:41 AM

I did.
Symptoms:
-Delusions of persecution
-Delusions of grandeur (i.e. you're going to be saved while millions go to Hell)
-Belief in being watched by invisible evil supernatural entities/entity.
-Auditory hallucination: Jesus spoke to me in my heart
-Disorganized Speech: a) cognitive slippage: this fits Christian apologists to a t
-"the major diagnostic feature of delusional disorder is persistent delusion, or belief that is contrary to reality, in the absence of the other characteristics of schizophrenia."(pg. 564) "...without any evidence for this belief." "Not the result of an organic factor such as brain seizures or any severe psychotic disorder." (p. 565)

According to the defintions found in Abnormal Psychology: An Integrative Approach, Barlow & Durand, 1995, I would categorize Christians not as psychotic or schizophrenic, but as having the milder Delusional Disorder(DSM-IV), unless they exhibit other symptoms.
NOTE: those with access to it will find that DSM-IV adds the ridiculous qualifier that beliefs 'held by the majority of society' are not to be considered delusions...however, it does not offere any support for this stance in cases where a belief fits all the other qualifications for being a delusion.

Don Morgan
posted February 10, 2002 08:24 AM

As Nathaniel Branden puts it in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem: "Mental health requires of man that he place no value above perception, i.e., no value above consciousness, i.e., no value above reality. ... There is no greater self-delusion than to imagine that one can render unto reason that which is reason's and unto faith that which is faith's. ... Anyone who engages in the practice of psychotherapy confronts every day the devastation wrought by the teachings of religion. ... If preventive therapy is every psychologist's and psychiatrist's professed dream, then an expose of the harmful consequences of childhood exposure to religion is a pretty good place to begin."
I agree with him.
This is not to say, of course, that all theists are psychotic. However, those theists who believe in a literal resurrection and other physical events which contravene the laws of nature likely would be classified as mentally unbalanced if those beliefs were not wrapped in religious garb and if they were openly talked about as if true, studied in Sunday schools, preached about on street corners, etc., etc.
Mad Kally is correct that there is often a religious element in psychosis. It is also true (if I remember correctly from my abnormal psych classes) that religious belief and schizophrenia occupy the same portion of the brain.
And certainly the biblical Jesus would likely be diagnosed by the standards of today as psychotic were it not for the fact that he is excused from such judgement (by all but a relatively small portion of us) by reason of the fact that his behavior and teachings are wrapped in religious garb.
--Don--

Rimstalker
posted February 10, 2002 09:32 AM
quote:
Religious belief is the beast means of coping with degression

Quite a Freudian, Meatcock. Not only is religion the beast, but it allows people to digress easily. In case you haven't noticed, though, Koy was making an argument based on the definition of psychosis, not vague references to dubious authorities. You see, he uses logic to debate, rather than quote mining and authority whoring, with a plastic label of scholarship slapped on it.

Mad Kally
posted February 10, 2002 09:37 AM

Why you say? Perhaps because 80%+ of the US buys into the insanity?
(Including psychiatrists and psychologists)
I read your debate with Gurdur and all I can say about that is "you are not all there", if you know what I mean! Maybe one card short of a full deck? Your posts are an excellent source of amusement. Everyone knows that laughter really does heal and boost the immune system! (without your horrid fairy tale invisible sky creatures)
A psychiatrist once told me I should pray more and read the bible. haha (the sick fuck)

And of course:
Andrea Yates, Insanity and Fundamentalism

You don't know what has been going on here in America. Back in the late 1970's or early 1980's the ACLU fought for Nazis to have the right to march into a town whos majority population was Jews (many were reported to be Holocaust survivors) and shout their vile words of hate - not to gain followers but to offend those people - because of "freedom of speech." But now the ACLU is denying Christians the right to speak about Christian subjects because their words "might offend somebody."

If a student is invited or has earned the right to speak in front of his peers, then it is because the teachers believe he or she has something they want to hear, The student has the freedom to say what he/she wants. The ACLU denies this freedom. There are other similar events happening here.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

FarSeeker · 06-21-2002, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:
How can we qualify communism?

It is an ideology.
It held the truth and noone else.
It declared the dictatorship of this truth.
It declared all religions false and persecuted them.
It denied critcism.
It denied freedom of speech.
It denied freedom of belief.

Gee! All this sounds very much like Christianity.
... and nothing like Atheism.

How can we qualify Atheism?

It is an ideology: "the doctrines, opinions, or way of thinking of an individual, class, etc."
It held the truth and noone else: "There are no dieties; all other religions are wrong." Yep, that fits.
It declared the dictatorship of this truth. QED or self-evident, Atheists dictate what is true.
It declared all religions false and persecuted them. Ahem, Read the thread about how Christians are all insane and should be be locked up.

/ It denied critcism.
T| It denied freedom of speech.
| \ It denied freedom of belief.
V
Well, You allow it for now, but only because you are outnumbered I suspect. The Soviet Constitution had a setion guaranteeing freedom of speech. They didn't hold to it while they were in power tho. Another Atheists I am debating on another thread stated he wanted to marginalize Christians - remove them from any influence in/over the American culture.

Gee! All this sounds very much like Atheism.

FarSeeker · 06-22-2002, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden:
I'm sorry, but this sounds like paranoid hyperbole to me and I certainly don't like being lumped in with a bunch of people "attempting to follow the Marxists down the path to despotism." Kinda goes against my libertarian grain!

Certainly there are atheists, including some that post at this site, that have an irrational hatred of Christians, or wish to marginalize or imprison them, but my long experience here (note my member #) does not lead me to believe that they are in the majority.

Give it time. Do you think Nazism started large, it never even had a mjority.
The Bolshevic was the smaller Marxist party I think (the other was the "menshavics or something).

Quote:

And I would like to see some references for these "atheist magazines" that "openly talk of removing Christians from all scientific positions". I read some of the more prominent "atheist" publications (Freethought Today!, Free Inquiry, Skeptic, The Skeptical Inquirer, etc), and I have never seen this advocated. Certainly there is open criticism of those who claim to be scientists yet put religious dogma before the scientific method, but I've never seen concerted advocacy of forcible removal.

See "The Skeptical Inquirer" article by K. Frazier (sp?) early 1983 and a recent
"Free Inquiry" article by Richard Dawkins.
I'll have to look for "The Humanist" article.

Quote:

I'll be the first to admit that there are atheists both here and in the world at large who are downright hostile to believers. However, I've seen and experienced hostility from believers as well. There's plenty of "blame" to go around on both sides...

Sort of destroys youe position when you admit that "your side" is no better than "my side."

Quote:

Frankly, as a freethinker, I'd rather live in a Christian-controlled state that permitted free expression and the right of non-belief than an atheist-controlled state where religion was outlawed and god-belief treated as a crime. I think most of my compatriots here would agree. Most if not all of us would like to see religion disappear, but we are committed to achieving this end through reason and the free exchange of ideas, not political fiat.

Great, a majority of one!

Quote:

Strangely enough, though, this "live and let live" ideal doesn't seem to work for fundamentalist Christians or Muslims. Your hyperbolic rant would seem to me better placed against them. Liberal theists and non-theists alike have little to fear from each other, but much to fear from the likes of Usama bin Laden and Pat Robertson.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Atheists seem to define "Liberal theists" as an Atheist who likes the Bible. Sort of like calling The Jesus Seminar pubications "scholarly.”

I am what most Atheists here would call a "fundamentalist Christian," yet I support the Constitution in all its glory.

P.S. On our previous argument: Dr. Peter Singer could just as easily air his opinions from a soapbox and his books; he doesn't need to control a prestigious position at a world-class university where he can do untold damage.

PPS: Why would an Atheist berate me for not having faith?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-10-2002, 06:52 AM	#222
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	How can we qualify communism? It is an ideology. It held the truth and noone else. It declared the dictatorship of this truth. It declared all religions false and persecuted them. It denied critcism. It denied freedom of speech. It denied freedom of belief. Gee! All this sounds very much like Christianity. ... and nothing like Atheism.

06-16-2002, 05:16 PM	#226
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Farseeker, you are getting paranoid. No one wants to lock up all Christians in mental institutions or marginalize them by force. What any atheist or non-christian religion would like is to make your fundies stop shoving their agenda down everyone's throats --- they are violating the right to live and let live.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.