HRG

The argument does not rule out a supernatural cause. It only says that we can never tell which supernatural cause was at work (or what actually happened, if we allow supernatural explanations).

A perceived resurrection can be explained by the hypothesis that it really happened supernaturally; but equally well by the hypothesis that some photons were bent and/or created to make us see a resurrection, despite that it never really happened.

Regards,
HRG.

Bilboe

HRG and Larry,

Maybe we can come to an agreement. Let's assume we have very good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus (I realize that's a BIG assumption for you, but just for the sake of argument). Now the question is, could one reasonably take this as evidence of a supernatural event? I would say Yes, but we can never fully rule out the possibility of natural causes. Would you say that was a reasonable statement? Or would you say that even if we had very good evidence, we must assume that there is some naturalistic explanation, and bringing in the supernatural is illegitimate?

Meanwhile, someone posted some links over at ARN that argue against The Jesus Puzzle. I've only read the first one, so far. Some of it is good, but some of it is inflammatory, so I won't post that link over here.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Bilboe ]</p>

Hans

Bilboe

The only way for you or I to determine whether Jesus' claims about God are factual is for you and I to have a reality to compare them to.

If Jesus claimed "God needs only faith for you to recieve his love." We have only Jesus' word. To verify a claim requires comparing that claim to reality. Since his claim refers to God, We would need to be able to query God himself to verify Jesus' claim. His character and seemingly supernatural abilities will lend in no way evidence to the validity of his claims.

britinusa

For me, "supernatural" means "does NOT exist or occur". Everything in the universe is "natural".
Many people believe homosexuality is "unnatural," but no-one can deny it exists, has always existed (even in biblical times). There are hundreds of millions of homosexuals in the world today. On the other hand, decomposing corpses springing back to life are hardly a dime a dozen, are they?
If you accept supernaturalism, then everything is turned upside down. Nothing is as it seems. You think you're staring at your monitor reading this, but perhaps you're only dreaming. You can't rely on anything, including the bible. Perhaps you (yes, YOU) are the only intelligent being in the universe; your family, friends, co-workers, everything are all figments of your imagination. The beliefs that you hold dearly could have been zapped into your brain by some as yet unknown, unrevealed intelligence.
In short, if you accept the supernatural you are opening Pandora's Box. It can easily end in insanity. Ask Russell Yates.

Asha'man

Actually, that is one of the reasons I mentioned prayer in my last post.

The existence of God is impossible to prove if God decides to hide from us, which apparently he has. Additionally, there is no way we could confirm anything about an afterlife, at least we can’t confirm it to the living. And 2000 years has probably destroyed any clear evidence of what really happened to a man named Jesus.

However, the Bible does make one real, testable claim. This claim could be verified here and now, if it were true. We each could witness it ourselves, with no need to rely on any untrusted, outside observer. That claim is that God will answer prayers.

However, as anyone can clearly see, God’s answer is usually NO. The universe behaves exactly as if God takes no action. Prayer has no measurable effect on the world. We may have stories of miracles in the past, but nothing we can over observe in person and verify.

Sure, many believers will claim that their prayers have been answered. But these are always prayers for things that could happen without intervention, and probably would have eventually. And these believers ignore the prayers that go unanswered, and only count the hits.

Hans

Asha'man

I agree.

Even though I seriously doubted the items I brought up at the beginning of this post could be shown I didn't expect things would unfold as they have. Namely, how Malaclypse the Younger was able to show the first 2 items were red herrings and that the only relevant matter is item 3. And then to show that item 3 can not be shown via evidentiary arguments.

I'm guilty of setting up the red herring items 1 and 2 many times in the past, without realizing they were such. I guess I'm so used to hearing apologist's arguments of how they (items 1 and 2) demonstrate christianities validity I fell victim to their own red herrings. This topic has been extremely beneficial for me for sure. I hope it has been for others as well.

ndiskeyez

...SORRY HANS,but I'm afraid your conversion can't currently be done,unless of course you believe in "Moses and the Prophets"?
Allow a brief explanation..

In Luke-16:31--Jesus is telling this parable,although He is using Abraham as the one speaking,interestingly enough...
"But he said to him,'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

So you see,if you don't heed the Old Testament,then you will probably NEVER believe any of the New Testament,as evidenced by your current state of unbelief.
Kind of timely,this being Easter season,as far as one who has already risen from the dead,and the countless multitudes who still deny and reject Him.
Anyhow,sorry if I have failed your challenge--but it is not I who does the "converting" to begin with. All the evidence you will ever need has already been presented--or better put,what you have already heard is all you will ever get.
You're on your own from here on out...

But remember,it's not like you were never given the chance to "convert"--so you can only blame yourself.
Good Luck!

Hans

ndiskeyez
And you know those claims are true, because?

The only thing my current state of disbelief indicates is that I have been not provided with anything in which to believe. In other words, If I was shown, I could choose to ignore, but I would have no choice but to believe.

Again this begs the guestion; You know Him is a him with a capital "H," because?

Converting in the context of this topic is to instill belief which requires knowledge that can be confirmed. Seems it is not found anywhere!

What evidence? And where?

Then I should feel confident that the christian god can not be shown to exist?

Except for the 6.5 billion other people here on earth.

What chance was that?

p.s., How's life in Trollland?

Bilboe

Hans: "The only way for you or I to determine whether Jesus' claims about God are factual is for you and I to have a reality to compare them to.

If Jesus claimed "God needs only faith for you to recieve his love." We have only Jesus' word. To verify a claim requires comparing that claim to reality. Since his claim refers to God, We would need to be able to query God himself to verify Jesus' claim. His character and seemingly supernatural abilities will lend in no way evidence to the validity of his claims."

Me: If Jesus claimed he was God -- in other words, claimed that he had created the universe, was omnipotent, omniscient, and absolutely good --are you saying we have no way of determining the truth of that? Suppose his character were that of a charlatan and we discovered it? Suppose he said obviously idiotic things? Suppose he acts like a paranoid schizophrenic? There certainly seem to be ways to falsify his claim. Are there ways to verify it? Suppose we determine that his moral insight and behavior is of the profoundest variety, found in only a few people throughout history? People like that don't claim to be God. If they did, I think it should pose a problem for us. I think we would be forced to conclude one of three things about such a person: he's a liar, a lunatice, or he's telling the truth. I don't see how you've come to grips with this issue, yet.

Bilboe

Asha'man,

I think you're right about prayer. You have asked God to show you the way, and you haven't gotten an answer. I'm still praying for you. I'm reminding God about Jesus teaching: "Which of you having a child, if she asks you for bread will give her a stone?"

By the way, if you think I'm conceited, thinking God will answer my prayer when He hasn't answered yours, just wait until you see me when I try walking on water. Haven't succeeded, yet. But still trying.