luvluv

ishalon:

I'd argue that the answer is patience. If you are truly waiting, He will speak to you. Keep your ears cocked and your eyes open.

Tercel

I know. So what?

RogerLeeCooke

Huh? Are you saying contradictions don't matter? If so, any debate is pointless.

Tercel

Yes I'm saying contradictions don't matter.
Debate about what is pointless?

Doubting Didymus

Debate about your beliefs is pointless, because you are one of those lucky lucky people who get to make up their beliefs based on whatever they feel like. You don't believe ALL of the bible (an impossible task) so you pick and choose based on whatever you feel like. You don't believe the word of ALL historical christian scholars, so you pick whomever you like, based on whatever you choose.

If you are just randomly picking up and discarding beliefs based on your intuition, how can you be sure that you are not offending the absolute burke out of god? Oh, let me guess, you know because you feel like it? because people you respect have made it up?

Tercel

I never understand why I get complained at for "picking and choosing" my beliefs.
Aren't I supposed to think critically? Isn't it good not to take stuff "on faith" but rather to carefully consider every single piece of evidence, weighing each view against the other at every point, and to end up with a well-thought-out conclusion? Isn't freethinking good? Isn't using my intuition and intellect to determine truth good? Isn't it good that I don't just accept everything I'm told on authority, but rather carefully consider its merits myself?

Aren't these things something to be commended, not criticised?

Based on what I feel like!?! Not exactly.

That's ambiguous, but I'll assume you mean that all historical christian scholars are in agreement among themselves and against me. In which case I'd say you're completely and utterly wrong.

How can you be sure you're not offending the absolute burke out of god by asking that question?

Doubting Didymus

You are not basing your belifs on evidence of any kind. You have said yourself that you base your beliefs at least partly on historical christian scholarship. The question is still: how did THEY know? the answer, (if you are interested in evidence) is that they made it up based on previous christian scholarship, which results in an incestuous spiral of causation.

To expound: modern christian scholars base their work on historical christian scholars, who base their work on the writers of the gospels, who based their work on the word of Jesus, who's beliefs were very much the jewish old testament beliefs that were prevalent at the time, and which in turn was based on an older pantheon (The Divine Elohim and El, the bull-god).

What I meant when I said 'You don't believe the word of ALL historical christian scholars' I meant not that they are united against you personally, but simply that you do not beleive all of them, and choose which ones you like and which you don't agree with. How do you know that ANY of them are right? The Spirit revealed itself to them? how would you know they are not lying or mistaken? You are no freethinker. Your beliefs are based on blind trust of historical writers whos opinions were also based on blind trust.

I am pretty sure that if god existed, he would indeed be very offended by that question. I, however, do not believe in god. You do. Please, based on the 'evidence' you claim to base your opinions on, tell us why you think god is not offended by your beliefs about him. Please do not evade this question.

Tercel

Well I think I am.

I seem to remember answering that with something along the lines of guidence of the holy spirit + revelation + tradition etc.

And there we disagree.

Do you mean scholars or theologians or both?

I don't claim to "know" which ones are right or if any of them are. However I find it in my assessment more probable that certain ones are more likely to be right than others.

Really? Why do I get accused of picking and choosing my beliefs then? Why do I get accused of not being a Christian? Why am I prepared to think things even when everyone else disagrees?

Your bias seems to be showing. I'm a Christian therefore I must have blind trust, right?
It's rather ironic you'd accuse me of blind trust since in reality I'm utterly cynical and skeptical. I've been accused of extreme cynicism plenty in real life, but I can't recall being accused of blind trust before.

I don't understand why you think God should be offended by my attitude and beliefs.
He created me with a good level of intelligence and intuition: so why should he be mad for me using them? Even those Christians who leave their brains at the church doors don't seem to actually think that using your brain gets God angry.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

Do you? If only thinking it made it true. What is the evidence that you are speaking of, exactly? Scripture? Theological writings? These need to be evidenced themselves!

How do you know that the holy spirit guided them? how do you verify their divine revelation? When on earth did 'tradition' become a guarantee of truth?

Yes, but why? on what do you judge the probability of the reliability of the author? Just because they claim to have been divinely inspired? No? Then what?

Then this will be a first.

I, Didymus, directly accuse you, Tercel, of blind trust in some of the claims of the christian church.

I will continue to accuse you of this until you show me that you include some kind of evidence in your judgement. I think you base your belief on what certain people tell you. Please prove me wrong.

The Bible says that you need to disembowell certain animals and burn their flesh in order to gain gods forgivness. How do you know that he isn't angry at you for not doing this? What is your freethinking evidence?

Jeremy Pallant

Doubting Didymus, I'm afraid that the answer to all of your questions with respect to Tercel's beliefs is "wishful thinking".