Slex

Have you seen this article? <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992572" target="_blank">Second law of thermodynamics "broken"</a>
Do you think that this will have an effect on the E/C debate (if true)?

Oolon Colluphid

I wouldn�t worry. Most living things tend to be measured in rather more than fractions of microns, which is what this refers to.

If it could be taken as relevant, it would be in evolution�s favour, because creationists use the 2LoT�s certainty to mean evolution can�t happen. If the law can be broken, then their misguided argument is sunk.

Oolon

scigirl

Hello Slex and welcome to infidels.

We discussed this finding a while back <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001094" target="_blank">here</a>.

scigirl

theyeti

Actually, this could be very significant. Most living things are measured at the micron scale (i.e. bacteria). But more importantly, so are the "molecular machines" that IDists go on about. This research shows that 1) micro objects do not behave like scaled-down macro objects (something we already knew) and 2) things can go "backwards" on a micro scale such that "order can come from disorder". Of course that last bit is oversimplified, because order comes from disorder on a macro scale all the time, as long as there is a net increase in entropy. But this could show that molecular "machines" have a higher likelihood of comming about through random interactions, even with what would normally result in a net decrease in entropy. I'm not the best person to ask about this though -- I would like to hear from one of our more physics oriented regulars (Jesse, Tim, etc.?)

theyeti

tgamble

Question is, will creationists care? They don't care that it's wrong....

sandlewood

I always thought the 2LoT argument was silly because, if you did find some case in which the law didn�t hold, then why not just argue that the law is wrong instead of arguing that that is evidence for God. It�s a man-made law, and either the law is right or wrong depending on the evidence. It has nothing to do with the existence of God.

tronvillain

theyeti:
While is well known that micro objects do not behave like scaled-down macro objects, this research shows nothing of the sort, since this result is exactly what we would expect from scaled down macro objects.

theyeti

Er, why? Do macro objects ever run backwards, so that there's a net decrease in entropy? Please keep in mind what "scaled-down" means -- it denotes smaller size but identical properties.

theyeti

Slex

Actually I've been lurking for some time on the forum, but read-only. I lose my temper easily - patience is not a quality I posses in excess and when I engage in a discussion it's kind of a drawback. Moreover, until I write my opinion (I'm a slow typist) I need quite a lot of time, so I limit only to reading posts here. I saw a link to this article at <a href="http://science.box.sk" target="_blank">http://science.box.sk</a> and decided that this might be of interest, I hadn't noticed that it was previosly discussed.