Radorth

Sorry Ciphergirl. I was unable to fathom your "logic" as it only raised 20 or so more questions in my mind. Simplistic arguments have that effect on me. You are making some extraordinary assumptions about what I believe as well.

Rad

Jayjay

What alternative universe do you live in? You haven't even began to demonstrate (at least in the threads I've seen) why

A) God couldn't just create willing, committed servants from the start
B) God needs servants at all

On the other hand, the atheist position explains very well why religions would want "willing, committed servants": religion is a tool to psychologically manipulate people into submission, for the benefit of whoever is running the church. So which philosophical position is the inconsistent one, ours that provides answers, or yours that provides no answers, only more questions and loopholes?

EDIT: Assuming that creating servants from scratch is somehow impossible for God, here's what the world would look like if he really wanted to train us into subservience...

1) The consequences of disobedience would be immediate and obvious: when one commits sin, there's immediate feedback. Wicca has a concept such as this, I believe.
2) Likewise, consequences of obedience should be immediate and obvious.
3) No suffering from sins committed by someone else. This confuses the learning process.
4) No random suffering (unless there is random suffering in heaven). That also distracts from the real purpose of the world.
5) Environment that resembles heaven, but is better structured. Kind of like an obstacle course is compared to real terrain.
6) As much knowledge about the "real thing" as possible, so that instead of trial and error we can figure out what is expected of us in the end.

The world we live in doesn't fit this description very well, unless it turns out that "heaven" is also riddled with diseases and natural disasters, and what we do here is child's play compared to the adversities therein.

Infidelettante

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Radorth
Yes there is. I clearly said he will put an end to this misery along with free will. He has good reason to permit free agency for a time, and good reason to end it at some point. I have said ten times elsewhere there is no other way to get willing, committed servants and nobody has shown me a better way than to let us develop a long and sorry history. He returns when his elect "cry day and night" and when complete destruction is imminent and "no flesh will be saved."
The question is not when will he come back Radorth. It is not why he will come back. It is why he left.
You just didn't agree with me.

No problem. Enjoy your time in the grace period, without which YOU would either never have been born.
"The age of Grace" The phrase that you use to cover the fact that your God is not here. Show me the passage in the OT that foretells your "grace period" Radorth.
Oh BTW, if he had not allowed so much physical death and war, the sex-obsessed race on planet earth would have reached 20,000,000,000 starving people when? In the year 1000 if everyone lived to be say, 100? You wouldn't be here in that case either. And if he hadn't made potatoes, the Irish would have starved to death when exactly
Do you really think this is an arguement for your God? We should thankful that he let so many of us die bacause if not even more would have died? What kind of God do you worship?
Now if you want to argue he should have come back and put an end to sex, you might have a case. Oh wait I know. He should have made men so that they become impotent after having one child. How's that?
No Radorth, that is not what I argue. I argue that he should have never left. Can you not tell the difference? So now you accuse me of being anti-sex? Do you even think before you write this stuff?
This has all been argued before, much better than you did, by Philosoft, and it was the same old disagreement about how to get willing servants. IMO he lost the argument as you did, but I can agree to disagree. I'm sure one of us is in for a huge shock. Oh wait. I guess not, if you're right. I'll be dead.
Radorth, I'm going to say this one last time. The question is not free will. The question is why Jesus left and didn't come back.
Hopefully this wasn't too deep for you.
] No Radorth, it is not too deep. It was this very question that began my journey out of Christianity when I couldn't find the answer. Thanks to you I still don't have it. And you know what? You know there is no answer. Have a good life Radorth, it's going to be the only one you get.
JT
Rad [/QUOTE

Bumble Bee Tuna

Hey Rad I tried to give a civil and to-the-point response without tying in intense hatred from other threads you've created. Please respond to my post though I don't remember exactly what I said...Just maybe say what problems you have with it? Your OP was a little unfocused so I recall having trouble understanding exactly what you wanted out of it, especially since discussion over all the posts before mine further diluted the discussion.

At least let me know if my response was what you were looking for or not.

-B

Radorth

Huh?

Well pretty much. At least you showed enough sense to think about your own motives and put yourself into the scenario. Did you read the three scenarios I gave?

Rad

Radorth

Promise? You are just wasting my time and preventing me from answering intelligent questions.

I know what your question is and I know what I answered.

Wait, I get your drift now. He should have stuck around and should have been in 6,000,000,000 places at once, chastising people for 18,000,000,000 sins each day and healing everybody at once while grabbing people out of floods, stopping tornadoes in their paths and going out to patch tiles on the space shuttle, all the while preserving our ability to make bad choices. (And we could just sit around inventing more and more tests for him than we already have).

Of course he would have to give special attention to my pastor, who says he sins about 100 times a day.

Jesus did stay here, in the form of the Holy Spirit whom he said would not come until he left.

You obviously never had any interaction with the Holy Spirit or you wouldn't be complaining.

Rad

Jack the Bodiless

Yes. He's omnipresent and omnipotent, right?

Heck, if there was clear evidence that he was in ONE place at once, stopping ONE tornado, that would be something.
How many tornadoes has the Holy Spirit stopped? And a "spirit" sounds like it would be the ideal astronaut. How many tiles did it fix?

BTW, what is your pastor's problem? I don't see how I could even come close to 100 sins per day.

Radorth

Jayjay's "solution." I always love these escoteric and simplistic assertions about how God should do things When examined closely, they stretch our credulity more than anything recorded in the Gospels.

JJ:1) The consequences of disobedience would be immediate and obvious: when one commits sin, there's immediate feedback. Wicca has a concept such as this, I believe.

See post above on how God would do this. I'm sorry but your post borders on the narcissisti and raises far more questions than mine. How exactly does the Wiccan system work? Do they hear voices or what?

JJ: 2) Likewise, consequences of obedience should be immediate and obvious.

Yes,God whacks 6,000,000,000 people over the head at once.

JJ: 3) No suffering from sins committed by someone else. This confuses the learning process.

Unless of course you commit far more than you could ever possibly redeem yourself from. Of course you, unlike my pastor, you have few faults, and should you run over a child and ruin his parents life, you will still somehow redeem yourself. Meanwhile you leave the thief on the cross to fend for himself. That's simply cold and self-righteous IMO.

JJ: 4) No random suffering (unless there is random suffering in heaven). That also distracts from the real purpose of the world.

And what would that "real purpose" be? Removing random suffering at some point is unforgivable apparently. We note you didn't respond to one of my scenarios and whether you would still choose to live here.

JJ: 5) Environment that resembles heaven, but is better structured. Kind of like an obstacle course is compared to real terrain.

Huh?

JJ: 6) As much knowledge about the "real thing" as possible, so that instead of trial and error we can figure out what is expected of us in the end.

What part of "Do good, love justice, and walk humbly with your God" don't you understand?

Oh I know. The "walk humbly" part.

Never was "the more you need repentance the less you can do it" more appropriate than on this thread.

Rad

Radorth

Jayjay would have a kitten and whine about why he didn't stop them all.

"The more you need it, the less you can do it."

Rad

Jack the Bodiless

As an atheist, I am pretty much without sin.