Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 05-01-2002, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Half-Life:
Do you think there has been anyone in the history of human beings who have been cured of cancer? We're talking miraculously cancer is gone mentality. Do you believe it has ever happened? if so, how do you believe it happened? God? Coinicidence? Chance?

I do believe people have had spontaneous remission. I do not know how it happens. I do not have to. I might speculate, but it would be just that - speculation. Just because I don't have an explanation does not mean that a supernatural event has occurred.

There are lots of people who pray. There are lots of people with cancer. There are probably lots of people with cancer who pray. If spontaneous remission exists, it will surely happen periodically among this population (people with cancer who pray). Is that evidence that prayer caused remission? Not at all.

Jamie

Mad Kally · 05-01-2002, 11:22 AM

Some related <a href="http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html" target="_blank"> articles on prayer. </a>

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Doubts About Prayer

The vast majority of the U.S. population -- patient and physician alike -- believes that there is a God who responds to prayer. Patients' utilization of prayer in recovery from illness is understandable. And a physician's participation is a logical extension -- why not pray with patients, if a divine entity might respond by accelerating improvement? And what harm could possibly derive from physician participation in prayer?

One might argue that there is no apparent downside and much to be gained by incorporating prayer into illness management. But what of the physician who might not care to participate in such activity, either for scientific or personal reasons? Incorporation of religious observance into medicine could artificially divide the physician and patient communities into unreconcilable camps. Use of public funds might also raise constitutional issues.

What about the matter of differences between various religions? Suppose a patient's religion teaches that, in order to gain God's ear, one must offer a sacrificial animal at the time of prayer? Should the doctor's office, or the hospital's surgical suite, become the venue for ritual sacrifice? At what point might a physician's nonparticipation in prayer-related activities become fodder for a charge of religious discrimination?

Western societies traditionally maintain a separation of religious and biomedical functions. Additionally, the scientific community at large has yet to accept prayer as efficacious treatment, because of the low quality of scientific evidence. In general, prayer studies have not been directed by skeptical scientists, but by physician proponents of prayer. As alluded to earlier, methodological flaws seem to plague the field.

--Gary Posner M.D.

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

Philosoft · 05-01-2002, 11:50 AM

The problem with any methodological prayer study, no matter how meticulous one designs it, is that there's no way to control for the variable 'prayer.' Because researchers can't stop people who don't have anything to do with the experiment (religious family members perhaps) from praying for the subject on their own time, there's no way either to ensure that an experimental group is only recieving prayers in the allotted time and duration or to prevent those subjects in the control group from being prayed for. This flaw renders any conclusions useless, and is a major point of criticism for studies such as that done by Elizabeth Targ.

E_muse · 05-01-2002, 04:11 PM

I find this whole subject very interesting, particulary as I am aware of at least three people known to those close to me who have recovered from cancer after prayer.

One was given two months to live, one was pregnant and so refused treatment and the other was bed ridden, slipping into a coma and seemed almost at the point of death.

Firstly, if such 'healings' are a quirk of nature and have a purely natural cause then it would seem unlikely that such recoveries have anything to do with religious conviction. Because of this, the statistics of people recovering from cancer who are non-religious should be the same for those who have a religious conviction.

To put it more simply, if x numer of people have cancer, it doesn't matter if they go to church or a football match.. they have just as much chance of getting healed.

Quote:

I do believe people have had spontaneous remission. I do not know how it happens. I do not have to. I might speculate, but it would be just that - speculation. Just because I don't have an explanation does not mean that a supernatural event has occurred.

Do you have any examples to support your 'belief'?

Philosoft · 05-01-2002, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by E_muse:
Firstly, if such 'healings' are a quirk of nature and have a purely natural cause then it would seem unlikely that such recoveries have anything to do with religious conviction. Because of this, the statistics of people recovering from cancer who are non-religious should be the same for those who have a religious conviction.

To put it more simply, if x numer of people have cancer, it doesn't matter if they go to church or a football match.. they have just as much chance of getting healed.

Not necessarily. Especially if healing or remission is facilitated by the <a href="http://skepdic.com/placebo.html" target="_blank">placebo effect</a>.

See <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000209" target="_blank">this thread</a> for some discussion.

TollHouse · 05-01-2002, 04:28 PM

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There was a women at my church who had terminal cancer...

Man, I get so sick of hearing these stories.
You'd think at least one of these tales that begins with "There was a person at my Church who had ______..." would be properly documentated enough to at least bring a reasoned possibility of miracles into light.

Here's a story taken from my own experience:

There was a man in my church who had lung cancer. The whole congregation prayed for him. He died.

E_muse · 05-01-2002, 04:30 PM

Apologies. I know you were replying to Tercel, but..

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You hear many, many stories? Do you hear them at church functions?

No. All the examples I have been given were from friends.

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That's not the way it happens in real life. I'm a hospice nurse and my job is to help people die with as much dignity and respect as possible. (in their homes)

What happens in real life is what happens to people in a broad sense. With respect, I do not think that you can simply tie it down to your own experience otherwise your arguement is, "Because this is true for me, it is true for everyone".

I am anxious to say at this point that there is not one ounce of maliciousness or anger in my post. I am aware that we are dealing with a highly emotive subject.

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Some people have hallucinations due to lack of oxygen to the bain and/or the use of heavy duty narcotics before they die. Prayer does NOTHING for these people. They all die the same.

In one example I know of, the patient was at home and on their death bed.. almost totally incapable of speech.

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There's no such thing as miracles. Sometimes people have spontaneous remissions and sometimes people don't. Whether or not they are religious makes no difference. By the time they meet me, I'd like to see a cancer patient get cured! (fat chance)

Here I must confess my ignorance of remission, and I'm sure your expertize can fill in gaps in my understanding.

Firsly, during remission, will tumours disappear? Will all evidence of the cancer go without the need for surgery?

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As was mentioned earlier, many many people have psychosomatic disorders, also called somatoform disorders. Just because they originate in the brain doesn't make them any less real to the patient. Spontaneous remissions can be very dramatic when people think their mythological guy in the sky did it. Of course, all of this stuff takes place before they are deemed terminal..

What of people who claim healing who don't appear to have a psychosomatic disorder?

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How far can you and your fellow xians stretch your wishful thinking? How reliable are these stories you hear so much about? You don't know do you?

I consider the examples I know of as very reliable indeed. If I have to judge between the incredulity of one person and the reliability of those who reported the events to me then there is simply no competition.

E_muse · 05-01-2002, 04:50 PM

Quote:

There are lots of people who pray. There are lots of people with cancer. There are probably lots of people with cancer who pray. If spontaneous remission exists, it will surely happen periodically among this population (people with cancer who pray). Is that evidence that prayer caused remission? Not at all.

I suggest that there are many more atheists on these boards than theists.

If your assertion is true (and I'm not suggesting that it is untrue), then we should all be able to come up with similar examples of people who have experienced remarkable recoveries from cancer - some due to prayer and some not.

No-one I know directly has been healed of cancer in a 'miraculous' way but I have reports from dear friends (that have not come to me in the context of a religious meeting) who know others who seem to have been healed in remarkable ways.

I'm simply saying that, if such remissions are 'spontaneous' and nothing to do with religious conviction, then we should all be able to come up with similar examples.

E_muse · 05-01-2002, 05:00 PM

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That's such a pathetic sort of miracle -- why not any really big ones, such as creating a giant cross made out of diamond and placing it on top of the Kaaba in Mecca?

If someone dear to you was dying of a terminal disease, which would you prefer?

I cannot believe how insensitive you've been. This is not a for/against miracles statement. I'm simply saying that if anyone had a very much loved mother/father/husband/son etc etc, who was dying of cancer, and they recovered, I don't think they would consider the recovery a 'pathetic sort of miracle' do you?

My father died of prostate cancer in 1985 and my mother died of lukaemia less than three years later in 1988.

When I saw them desperately weak and dwindling away I know which miracle I would have preferred. Do actually know what we're talking about here or had any experience of it?

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: E_muse ]

05-01-2002, 05:15 PM

I know people who recovered from cancer after homosexual sex. Sex therefore cures cancer.

I know survivors who suffered while they had cancer, suffering therefore can cure cancer.

I knew a person who prayed every day while he had cancer. He's dead.

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05-01-2002, 11:50 AM	#13
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	The problem with any methodological prayer study, no matter how meticulous one designs it, is that there's no way to control for the variable 'prayer.' Because researchers can't stop people who don't have anything to do with the experiment (religious family members perhaps) from praying for the subject on their own time, there's no way either to ensure that an experimental group is only recieving prayers in the allotted time and duration or to prevent those subjects in the control group from being prayed for. This flaw renders any conclusions useless, and is a major point of criticism for studies such as that done by Elizabeth Targ.

05-01-2002, 05:15 PM	#20
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	I know people who recovered from cancer after homosexual sex. Sex therefore cures cancer. I know survivors who suffered while they had cancer, suffering therefore can cure cancer. I knew a person who prayed every day while he had cancer. He's dead.

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