NOGO

Ed,

Care to answer the question?

NOGO

Ed,

This was you question which I modified to fit in with our discussion on the Amalekite people.

"Would you consider a judge sentencing the children of the murderer of your wife
as taking revenge on them?"

What is your amswer, Ed?

Ed

The problem is how do you determine what a just society is? The Nazis thought their society was "just". On what basis is your definition better than the Nazis?

Starboy

Ed, the Nazis considered theirs a just society because they excluded most of mankind from their definition of humanity. Any point of view that is exclusionary such as Christianity will also suffer from this defect.

Starboy

NOGO

NOGO

"these were the designated representatives of the king of the universè"

This should read "self-designated". The Egyptians had their own religion and the King was their God's representative.

I have another example for you, Ed.
Surely you must know how the Israelites escaped from Egypt. All first-born were massacred by the angel of Yahweh in order to force the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go.

Ed:
"Tne amalakites slaughtered the weak and helpless"

So did Yahweh ...

"And all their descendants gloried in that victory for 400 years"

Well you have not shown this. It is a pure invention on your part.

However, you must know that the Jewish passover refers to the night when the angel of the Yahweh PASSED OVER the Hebrew homes and entered the Egyptian homes in order to kill Egyptian babies.

Talk about killing the innocent for something their paresnts did?

Ed

No, the scriptures must be understood in context. The overarching reason why humans die and why God decrees death to people is that we are by nature in rebellion against him and according to his law all humans deserve death at birth. ("The wages of sin is death.") But he is gracious enough to let some of us live longer. In this particular case these people were also destroyed because they attacked God by attacking his people(but the overarching reason is above). By attacking God they were attacking everything that is good in the universe. If they had been allowed to develop their society beyond the 400 years then things in the middle east would have been worse than they already were. These pagan societies were raising children to despise all life and morality.

Quote:

ng: Now look at Deut 25 below. Deut 25 17 "Remember what Amalek did to you along the way when you came out from Egypt, 18 how he met you along the way and attacked among you all the stragglers at your rear when you were faint and weary; and he did not fear God. 19 "Therefore it shall come about when the LORD your God has given you rest from all your surrounding enemies, in the land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget. A clear statement to destroy these people right after the attack took place. The only reason they waited is that they did not have the means back then. Funny that Yahweh cannot do his own butchering. This is clearly revenge.

No, the reason that they did not destroy them at the time is because they had more important things to do ie go to the promised land. They could have easily destroyed them with their 1 million man army. Also, God was showing grace to them.

[b] No, in relationship to God there is no such thing as truly innocent people, see above.

NOGO

All of what you wrote is completely off the mark.
You are again inventing another reason for the massacre.

Last time it was because they glorified their victory now it is because they were ... "born".

Anything except taking what the Bible says.
The Bible states the reason for the massacre ie the attack which took place 400 years before. It give no other reason.

Why are you trying to add elements which are totally absent from this episode? I know why. This is a rhetorical question.

The Amalekites were massacred because their great, great, great .... great grand-parents attacked the Israelites.

Revenge upon the children is immoral. Therefore Yahweh is an immoral God.

The massacre of the Egyptian children is another immoral act.

God could have destroyed them in a blink of an eye. So why way 400 years and destroy innocent people.

Your explanation that we are all guilty and deserving death is just nonsense. If that were the case then 1 Sam 15 would have said what the real reason was that the Amalekites were evil instead it says that the reason is the attack which took place 400 years before.

There is no way out of this, Ed. You are just trying to whitewash the issue. Yahweh is an immoral mythological God.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

NOGO

With this kind of morality we have the right go out and slaughter anybody.
Or are you saying that only God can go out there and slaughter anybody he wants for no particular reason.

So, Ed, there is a human morality and there is God's morality.
Killing someone for something he has nothing to do with is not morally right for humans but it is for God.
An act is not morally wrong by it's nature but depends on who does it.

Did I get that right, Ed?

You did not answer this question, Ed.

"Would you consider a judge sentencing the children of the murderer of your wife
as taking revenge on them?"

Or do you need to know who the judge is and who the murderer is?

Your morality, Ed, isn't!

Ed

I am not saying that you as a person are irrational but atheism as a worldview and most ethical systems based on atheism are not as rational as Christianity. They may have some rational aspects to them but their foundation is irrational, ie they are usually based on sentimentality for the human species.