Deputy42

good debate, well here's my 42 cents:
many atheists focus on God, and Jesus and attack the bible. rarely, if ever, does anyone talk about the, yes here it is, HOLY SPIRIT. He's mad you say.....well hold on a few pardner......every religion of the world believes in some kind of spirit world. what is spirit? most basically its the unknown, the supernatural, THAT WHICH CANNOT BE EXPLAINED. it is the place where words cease to have meaning. all major religions have practice, and verbal teaching. why? because mere conjecture and endless debate is pointless without real experience. likewise pure spirit is impotent without proper guidance. to a christian, the bible is a vehicle for the holy spirit. in the same way if you point a muslim to a violent passage in the koran he will commense to teach you about other passages that teach peace and harmony. the point is that the spirit is just as important as the words. certainly, to accept the bible one must accept a certain historical centrism around the jews. this is the same for all religions. and to hide behind the shroud of "atheism" is fallacy. accepting logic and science are mere forms of thought based on other principles. it has no end and as you progress down the road, like socrates, you might dispell some of your false knowledge, then what? you still remain a skeptic till death, like socrates. you gotta take a stand sometime, so pick one and leave the poor christians alone, man live and let live

Tercel

You can't. That's what makes them so good and so useless. They seemed real to me, and they are convincing to me. But they are not going to be very good evidence from your point of view. That's why I listed a number of other forms of evidence:
"personal testimony of others, miracles in the Christian tradition, scientific investigation into those miracles, scholarly investigation into the Bible etc."

Religious experience is not the aim in life: It doesn't matter whether you've had one or not. It doesn't make me any better than you. Perhaps it makes me worse: Perhaps God gave it to me because I needed one while you are stronger and don't need one? Who can say. Need I quote the God's ways are above our ways thing?

Something I have felt God drawing to my attention lately is this:
We all want to see God's power for the sake of seeing the miraculous, and we all think such things are wonderful and amazing. But God isn't interested in doing miracles just so we can see them. Rather he is interested in seeing a loving heart out serving him in the world. If we are obeying and serving God out doing his will it is then that he wants to empower us to do it better.
I see a lot of people here who are disillusioned because God wouldn't talk to them. I get the impression that they were concentrating to much on themselves and trying to hard with their personal-relationship-with-god(tm). What they should have been doing was to be out serving God, loving their neighbour, caring for their friends, helping the poor the sick etc. Where they should have been trying to do God’s will in the world and improving their own nature in the process of loving and helping others, they were busy trying to “talk” to God or trying to get him to give them an “experience” of their own. Those are my thoughts anyway, on the subject… they do sound rather cynical when put that way, but it does seem to me it’s rather selfish to be pestering God to try and milk him for all he’s worth when you’re supposed to be serving him.

But, if there's one thing I have learnt in my Christian life it's this: Love of God and one's neighbour and a readiness to serve all in obedience to the will of God, is worth more than a thousand religious experiences.
A religious experience rarely effects a lasting change, better is to obey the will of God and allow God to work his changes in you in a slower, but more permanent way.

God Bless,
Tercel

Tercel

Don’t get me wrong. I think evidence is important, I wouldn’t believe in God if I didn’t feel there was sufficient evidence of his existence.

Huh?
Why can't I claim punishment for sinners? I say that God hates all evil and desires it to be destroyed accordingly. I also say that he loves us and does not want to destroy us and so he sent Christ to die and redeem us of our sins in order that he does now have to destroy all who will accept Christ's sacrifice and allow their evil to be removed.

I see numerous problems here with your complaints. Whatever Paul thought he saw in his vision, he was also a member of a Christian Church for some years. Furthermore, he mentions in his letter to the Galations that he spent two weeks with the apostle Peter "obtaining information" from him. I think Paul may have noticed during this time if his beliefs had differed from the apostles etc in any major way. Yet there seems to be little conflict ever shown between Paul and the Apostles, save the exact nature of Jesus' impact on the Jewish law. Indeed Paul seems eager to stress in his letters that they are all parteners and he is not trying to teach anything different to the other apostles.
As far as your specific points are concerned:
* “According to the scripture; Jesus did not say that you could ask him to forgive your sins, only Paul, and others after the death of Jesus assert this.”
Jesus is depicted in the Gospels forgiving sins and even performs a miracle to prove that the Son of Man has the authority to forgive sins. (see Mat 9:6, Mark 2:10, Luke 5:24)
* “Jesus did not say that those who did not believe in him would suffer an eternity of pain and damnation.”
‘Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.’ Mark 16:16
* “Jesus did not say that money should be wasted on buildings in which to worship him.” Where exactly does Paul assert this?
* “Jesus did not support the idea of tithing, or paying dues as though you were a member of some great society.” Jesus didn’t support tithing? News to me. Would you like to support that statement?
* “Jesus did not support the idea of Armegeddon in todays age, in fact, according to scripture, Jesus thought that the end would come within the lifetime of his own generation!” It rather depends upon exactly how you understand his words (and whether they really are his words, of course). Apocalyptical literature is a common Jewish style from the period but it’s not always very clear or easy to interpret. Personally, I think the apostles got a little confused between Jesus’ prediction of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple (which took place in 70AD within the life-time of some of that generation) and his speech on the end of the world which states that the Gospel has to be preached to all peoples first (which still hasn’t happened). Interpret it how you like though.

I don’t believe in God just because the Bible says he exists. Such is not sufficient evidence.

Tercel

waxm

deputy- every religion of the world believes in some kind of spirit world. what is spirit? most basically its the unknown, the supernatural, THAT WHICH CANNOT BE EXPLAINED.

Wax- Hmmm...Where did you pick this up at?
There are two problems with the "holy Spirit" for Christianity.

1: Only those that have been indoctrinated are "allowed" to receive it.
Perhaps it is the brainwashing technics of the Christian church that enforces such group hypnosis. All rise, All kneel, All sit, All sing, All pray, etc, etc.

2: Christian theology claims that the holy spirit is a third of the so called "Trinity". An example of pluralism that snuck in early in the Christian tradition, yet Jesus clearly seperated himself from God, claiming to be less powerful and subordinate to him.Mark 10:18 for one reference.

So in conclusion, if the "holy Spirit" truely exists, perhaps you should be worshipping it, instead of "God".
And just because you get excited at a rock concert, arena event, football game, pep rally, movie, etc, etc,....don't assume that the effect is supernatural in origin and start claiming to have gotten religion.

moiii

I am curious. What errors did you find in the Bible?

Free Thinkr

Don't have much time here, so to keep it short, I'll give an extremely general answer: The entirety of Genesis.