Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 10-10-2002, 09:48 AM

DK, try using a published paper next time. All you have offered is unreviewed internet fluff.

Jerry Bergman does not have a scientific background. His "human biology" degree is from a non accredited correspondence school, which has been ordered to shut down for various reasons <a href="http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html" target="_blank">(Here)</a>.

AiG makes a big fuss about his "credentials" but of course they neglect to actually list the "scientific papers" that he has suppodedly written. Like most other AiG claims, I doubt they even exist. (I looked on pubmed, but couldn't find anything written by him.)

Also he works at Northwest State Community College. AiG perpossely leaves out the fact that he teaches at a community college. Looks like they are once again trying to inflate flacid creationist credentials.

About junk DNA:
A little fact not mention in your post, both coding and non-coding DNA produce the same trees. So your complaints are invalid.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

pz · 10-10-2002, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:

Also he works at Northwest State Community College. AiG perposly leaves out the fact that he teaches at a community college. Looks like they are once again tyring to inflate flacid creationist credentials.

But please, let's not disparage the good, wise, educated people who do teach and learn at community colleges. We can find dimwitted bozos at private and state four-year and graduate-accredited universities, too -- that does not taint the reputation of other individuals there.

Valentine Pontifex · 10-10-2002, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz:


But please, let's not disparage the good, wise, educated people who do teach and learn at community colleges. We can find dimwitted bozos at private and state four-year and graduate-accredited universities, too -- that does not taint the reputation of other individuals there.

I don't think that RufusAtticus was putting down community colleges. Merely pointing out that Bergman was engaged in trying to make his resume look better than it really is. The institution is called <a href="http://www.nscc.cc.oh.us/" target="_blank">Northwest State Community College</a> and NOT Northwest State College. To the casual reader the latter will sound more impressive than the former.

Lets go back to that resume:

Quote:

Dr. Bergman has earned seven college degrees, including three masters degrees and two doctorates. His last Ph.D. is in biology.

RufusAtticus has informed us that the biology degree is a from a diploma mill. His <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/j_bergman.asp" target="_blank">AiG bio</a> states what the rest of his degrees are. Wayne State is a legit institution so he really does have a real doctorate. It is a bit unusual that he has got a B.S., M.S., and a Ph.D. from the same institution.

I have looked at the<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html" target="_blank">T.O. Credentials FAQ</a> and find that it lists Harold S. Slusher as getting his degree at the same institution. It does not mention Bergman and its info on Columbia Pacific University is a bit dated.

RufusAtticus · 10-10-2002, 12:43 PM

On another note, Bergman's real PhD ("Evaluation and Research") is from Wayne State's College of Education, which calls it a doctorate in "Educational Evaluation and Research." Hmmm, I wonder why "Educational" is left off. More inflation?

Quote:

Evaluation and Research
Evaluation and Research offers concentrated programs for building careers and leadership positions in educational evaluation and statistics; computer applications; and research methodology.

Students who have already successfully achieved backgrounds, training, and experience in substantive disciplines of education and in non-education fields and who are interested in becoming more proficient in scientific inquiry, research strategies, evaluation and appraisal of studies, models and designs, and multivariate analysis, especially in conjunction with computer facilities, are afforded such opportunities in these programs. For optimum effective preparation, internships in research will be arranged upon request. The staff is available to students and faculty for consultation in research design and multivariate analysis.

Cooperative educational programs leading to training skills in Educational Evaluation and Research in Medical Education are also available. This specialized training is available in cooperation with selected faculty from the School of Medicine. Persons from the health sciences seeking educational research skills and persons from education backgrounds seeking health science education skills are brought together for their mutual growth. . . .

Educational Evaluation and Research
(Doctoral Programs)
Admission: Applicants to doctoral program in this area must meet the admission requirements stated under Admission, Doctoral.

DEGREE REQUIREMENTS: Basic degree requirements for Ph.D. and Ed.D. programs are stated under Doctor of Education Requirements. All courses in the major are selected in consultation with an adviser

Blinn · 10-10-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz:


But please, let's not disparage the good, wise, educated people who do teach and learn at community colleges. We can find dimwitted bozos at private and state four-year and graduate-accredited universities, too -- that does not taint the reputation of other individuals there.

Heh, that place used to be "Northwest Tech" or more appropriately, NitWit Tech. It sits in the heart of the northern Bible belt. For a highly educated person to stay in that area (Montpelier of all places) he must be a crackpot.

Dr Rick · 10-10-2002, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:
DK...A little fact not mentioned in your post, both coding and non-coding DNA produce the same trees. So your complaints are invalid.

...and the fallacious extended "Swami" analogy is a pretext absent context.

Rick

RufusAtticus · 10-10-2002, 01:19 PM

More information: Bergman used to teach at Bowling Green in the '80s, but was denied tenure because of "ethics, teaching, quality of publications and relevance of publications to his teaching." He sued and lost claiming that he was reliously descriminated against. AiG even has on their website that he was fired because of <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2917.asp" target="_blank">bigotry</a> against creationists.

<a href="http://jehovah.to/freedom/" target="_blank">More Info</a>

Court case: <a href="http://jehovah.to/freedom/bergman.htm" target="_blank">Bergman v. Bowling Green</a>

dk · 10-10-2002, 03:19 PM

Xixax: Xixax
IIDB Regular
User # 3041
posted October 10, 2002 10:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Xixax: dk, I watched a very similar discussion on this same topic last month.
Are you aware that chromosomes DO fuse?
Are you aware that the additional telomere and centromere portions of that particular chromosome are indicative of a fusion?
If they do fuse, and those are indicative of a fusion, if we were to find them 'unfused' in another species ( especially a species predicted to be our nearest living relative ), would that then not indicate common heredity -before- the fusion occured?
You're saying that people just assumed 'they fused', and then use that to infer in a circular argument that it is proof of common heredity ( since to you, the only proof of their fusion is that we share a common ancestor ).
That is -not- the case. The proof of their being a fused version of those two is the additional telomeres and centromere, and the near perfect matching of the banding sequences of the two when compared. The evidence of the fusion stands on it's own apart from common heredity.
I'll let the experts here deal in the details ( again, as they have so graciously done over and over for those like you who have emotional and philosophical problems with something that involvs neither emotion or philosophy ). I just hate to see you waste so much straw making little men out of them to pummel.

Look, I appreciate you guys expertise, and I�m in no position to debate what telomere and centromere portions of a particular chromosome, that would be pretensions. But I will remind you about the battle going on between HGS, Celera, Incyte and other genome enterprises. Celera says there are as few as 26,000 genes and max of 40,000; HGS claims to have discovered 90,000, and Insyte vows 140,000. I don�t know if your read the prospective published by these companies, but their outlook reads dismal, one long chain of �xxxx can�t be certain�, �even if�, �disputes may arise�, �The xxxx may infringe upon the intellectual property rights of�, rapidly changing technology in life sciences could make the xxxx group�s product line obsolete�, etc... In my meager opinion all the indicators point to proteinonics for breakthroughs from a superstructure codes that unify protiens w/ genomics. What bothers me is nobody in science raised the question, and that begs the question why? The answer is all to ready, nobody raised the question because everybody mistook the pretext of evolution for context. Clearly patterns are repeated across the DNA of all living creatures, but I would expect this to be the case on appearances alone, and even a monkey knows they have fingers and toes like people, even if they can�t count to ten. The genes certainly prove life manifests the same patterns, again and again and again, but this evidence has been around since the 12th Century ( Fibonacci). I don�t see how this proves evolution is a blind undirected process, or a directed designed process; and its quite possible there�s evidence for both. If Newton and Einstein saw design in the universe then that�s great, and if Heisenberg and Bell see only random variables that�s even more wonderful.

The only progress I�ve noticed come from the genome entails defective chromosomes of inbred dogs and lab mice that match similar ailments in people, and this analysis is systematic, not evolution based. I�m just a network analyst but if I know anything (be nice) it is the importance of asking the right question unburdened by bias. On the other hand I know great scientists are doing great work, and analyze their work doesn�t see the light of day for the hype. What came across the media was a blurred myopia that closely resembled a load of crap. If evolution doesn�t ask the right questions, then what good is it?

But let me repeat, if the theory of evolution ever proves reliable, then I'm all for it.

Biotechnology
The Man Behind Millennium's Cancer Drug
Matthew Herper, 06.06.02, 8:00 AM ET

Quote:

<a href="http://www.forbes.com/2002/06/06/0606mlnm.html" target="_blank"> NEW YORK </a> - Millennium Pharmaceuticals has brought a stunning arsenal of genetic research to bear on the problem of developing new medicines. But as useful as genomics and rational drug design might be, they can't develop drugs on their own. Most new medicines owe their existence to a single, dogged scientist who acted as a champion. Millennium's experimental cancer drug, MLN341, is no different: Julian Adams, a blue-eyed and wavy-haired chemist, invented the drug and has shepherded it through two mergers.
(snip)
Millennium is having no trouble finding patients who want to participate in the tests. If the drug succeeds, it will be the first the company has brought to market entirely on its own. But the pressure is already on Adams, who is now in charge of discovering new gene targets at Millennium, to match his previous success. So far, neither Millennium, nor competitors such as Human Genome Sciences (nasdaq: HGSI - news - people ), Celera (nyse: CRA - news - people ) or Incyte (nasdaq: INCY - news - people ), have brought a drug derived from the human genome to market. ------ � 2001 Forbes.com� All Rights Reserved

dk · 10-10-2002, 03:24 PM

I posted in the wrong window, and destroyed this post. very, very, very sorry

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]

dk · 10-10-2002, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zetek:


Heh, that place used to be "Northwest Tech" or more appropriately, NitWit Tech. It sits in the heart of the northern Bible belt. For a highly educated person to stay in that area (Montpelier of all places) he must be a crackpot.

And here I thought you guys were non-judgmental. But on a serious note, would this guy be any more competent if he bowed at the alter of evolution?

10-10-2002, 09:48 AM	#11
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	DK, try using a published paper next time. All you have offered is unreviewed internet fluff. Jerry Bergman does not have a scientific background. His "human biology" degree is from a non accredited correspondence school, which has been ordered to shut down for various reasons <a href="http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html" target="_blank">(Here)</a>. AiG makes a big fuss about his "credentials" but of course they neglect to actually list the "scientific papers" that he has suppodedly written. Like most other AiG claims, I doubt they even exist. (I looked on pubmed, but couldn't find anything written by him.) Also he works at Northwest State Community College. AiG perpossely leaves out the fact that he teaches at a community college. Looks like they are once again trying to inflate flacid creationist credentials. About junk DNA: A little fact not mention in your post, both coding and non-coding DNA produce the same trees. So your complaints are invalid. [ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

10-10-2002, 03:24 PM	#19
dk Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Denver Posts: 1,774	I posted in the wrong window, and destroyed this post. very, very, very sorry [ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]</p>

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10-10-2002, 01:19 PM	#17
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	More information: Bergman used to teach at Bowling Green in the '80s, but was denied tenure because of "ethics, teaching, quality of publications and relevance of publications to his teaching." He sued and lost claiming that he was reliously descriminated against. AiG even has on their website that he was fired because of <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2917.asp" target="_blank">bigotry</a> against creationists. <a href="http://jehovah.to/freedom/" target="_blank">More Info</a> Court case: <a href="http://jehovah.to/freedom/bergman.htm" target="_blank">Bergman v. Bowling Green</a>

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