Patroclus

Common ground, perhaps. But I do not think that both persons have to believe the grounds. One can merely use decided grounds as a platform for discussion.

At any rate, I think you are right, John, that we generally agree.

Amos

Ah, but John, God has everything to do with goodness and light because without God there can be no goodness nor light. It seems to me that light is an illusion much in the same way as sound and so if we are not illuminated by the celestial light it would be impossible to transform the golden rays of the sun into the light of common day. So there, no God equals no light!

Luiseach

Amos!

'Light' is a naturalistic phenomenon, and is 'good' insofar as it makes life possible at all. Surely you don't think light and sound are illusions, when the evidence for their existence is so overwhelmingly obvious...

From your post, I take it that you are a theist, and think that God created light...may I be so bold as to ask what evidence you have for this, please? I crave evidence to back up assertions. It's like when we discussed Eliot before; we used proofs to bolster our opinions.

I am interested in how you come to the conclusion that light is anything but a naturalistic phenomenon?

Patroclus

Though I do not agree with Amos' assertions about light, the belief in a creator of light (which I would agree with) is basically the same as a belief in natural generation of life.

There may be a lot of evidence for this, that and the other. But there are things we simply do not know. One cannot prove any origin of light. Even if you want to take existence all the way back to the big bang, it begs the question: "Where did that marble-sized grain of matter come from?"

Many people agree, including Hawkings (See A Brief History of Time) that at some point, there was nothing--or at least some sort of lack. Exactly how we went from "lack" to matter, nobody can prove. But, there are plenty of speculations, among which we find the theistic construct. One need only choose a certain speculative system.

Of course, since light is related to matter, it falls under the same question.

Amos

Hi Luiseach, well I am not a very good theist but I do believe that
God still creates light.

In my opinion light is an illusion and only God is good or light could not even be an illusion. If light was not an illusion life would be real and if life was real eternal life could not be conceived to exist . . . and of course, if eternal life was not real we would die and darkness would return (this is based on the premis that life and light are equal opposites to death and darkness and therefore eternal life is void of darkness).

I actually used the "fallen tree" question to suggest that light is much the same in that without a mind (wherein we are God) there can be no light just as there can be no sound without a mind. (I should remind you here that while we look with our eyes we see with our mind just as we listen with our ears but hear with our mind. So therefore, no mind is no God and no God equals no sound and no light.

Patroclus

So, in short, you are an idealist. I was having the hardest time figuring out where you were coming from.

Amos

Perhaps and, yes, I have been told that before. I actually do not know much about "idealism" and so I really do not know.

I just think it is funny to call temporal life an illusion.

Patroclus

Idealism is the philosophy that reality is what is perceived (ideas). A major proponent of this is Barclay.

Emperialism is the philosophy that reality is what can be perceived through sense experience (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell).

I fall somewhere in the middle.

Dr. Retard

Not to be snippy, but "Berkeley" and "empiricism" are the words. In case someone wants to do Google research.

Also, I think neither is concerned with what reality is, but rather what we can know.

Patroclus

Thanks,

You have no idea what one will spell in the wee hours of the morning--though you boviously managed just fine.

I wouldn't have said anything. But it looks as though the topic is rapidly falling apart anyway.