Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fatherphil · 05-09-2003, 07:57 AM

perhaps if the janitor thought he could trust him. i've talked my way into things by gaining the trust of strangers and putting them in a position to help me out.

hey calzaer, so you are stating that the officer gained access through the threat of violence?

brighid · 05-09-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

perhaps if the janitor thought he could trust him. i've talked my way into things by gaining the trust of strangers and putting them in a position to help me out.

Just because someone has been convinced to trust another does not mean that person is worthy of that trust. There are plenty of criminals (including serial killers, and pedophiles) that deceitfully gain the trust of their victims. What you are implying is that gaining trust in this fashion is morally acceptable. I would also like to differentiate circumstances where gaining the trust of strangers for help when help is legitimately needed, and not to serve a political or criminal agenda (such as the cop appears to have had.)

So please answer the question, do you honestly think the janitor would have let a plain clothed individual into a locked school at 1:30 am? Furthermore, should a janitor allow ANY unauthorized personell into a locked institution?

I think you should test your theory and attempt gaining the trust of either janitorial, or security staff at one of your local elementary/middle schools at the exact same time, with the exact same agenda and see how easy it is for you to gain entry as an ordinary civilian. Care to take that dare fatherphil?

Brighid

fatherphil · 05-09-2003, 09:53 AM

how is the cop's need for assistence illigitimate?

perhaps next time i'm out at that time in the morning i'll give it a try, how about you?

do i think a janitor should allow ANY unauthorized individual into a locked institution? i'll let that be a judgement call on the janitor's part and hold him resposible for the consequences.

so lets hang the janitor!!

Majestyk · 05-09-2003, 04:29 PM

I can't believe this thread is still running on pure speculation on both sides. Did I miss the interview where the janitor is quoted as to the content and nature of conversation that preceedded his admitting the officer?

Randi · 05-09-2003, 07:18 PM

O.K., the core issue of abuse of position for personal ends is not speculation. Whether he had a gun on him is because that was never mentioned. None of the links on this thread has any direct quotes from the janitor in question, but apparently there are two versions:

From one of the articles:
Some parents said they were far more concerned with Mott�s persuading a custodian to unlock a classroom so he could photograph student work at 1:30 in the morning than anything Treece was teaching.

From the other article:
Mott disputes an account of the April 9 incident contained in a letter written by school Superintendent Dorothy Anderson to the police chief.

Specifically, Mott disputes Anderson�s claim that he �banged on the front door� of the high school to get the attention of night custodian Arnold Cliche, and that Cliche opened the door and let him in.

�It didn�t happen that way,� he said.

According to Mott, he entered the school through an unlocked maintenance door, found Cliche and asked him to unlock the door to Treece�s classroom room so he could take photographs with his personal camera. Although he was on duty at the time, Mott maintains that he was on a break and wanted to photograph student projects that offended him as an American and a retired military man.(end of quote)

I imagine the janitor in question is keeping a very low profile, because in either version he doesn't look too good. I imagine that the school Superintendent based her letter on the janitor's account.

Ronin · 05-10-2003, 01:39 AM

I don't know how I've completely missed this thread until now!

The citizen was trespassing.

The use of city uniform and representation during the commission of this misdemeanor and subsequent insubordination should be covered within his agency's policy manual.

If his position falls under civil service rules then there should be notice and a hearing.

Does anyone have any updates on this incident?

~ I have to go...Jack's cleaners just pulled up to the Catholic church and I'm just dying to take some photos of what's inside those cool confessional booths...oh, hey, and there's a light on at the Young Republicans recruiting office. I'll have to be quick...shhhhh.

ksagnostic · 05-10-2003, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
brighid, i guess he thought he had a right as a taxpayer. but then if he were also a parent as well as a cop then you would not mind so much? btw, school lockers can be searched without a warrant, right? how does the classroom differ?
rufus, if that's the best you can do with a charge, i guess the cop is not going to have much to worry about.

You seem to have missed an important point. Status as a taxpayer and a parent does not confer the "right" to enter a school. During school hours, I have to go to the front desk and sign in at my daughter's school. At night, when my daughter was on set crew for the school play, she and I had to check in with the faculty person in charge, and they had to shut off the alarm. As a taxpayer, the cop had no right to go in there. Hell, if the status of "taxpayer" conferred that right, I could go down to the local air force base and demand to be let in. I'm a taxpayer after all.

fatherphil · 05-10-2003, 11:14 AM

hey, you could always ask. sometimes folks let you in just like the janitor did. question: if the janitor was not in support of what the cop was going to do, do you think he might have refused to allow him access to the room?

Optional · 05-10-2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
hey, you could always ask. sometimes folks let you in just like the janitor did. question: if the janitor was not in support of what the cop was going to do, do you think he might have refused to allow him access to the room?

And, likewise, you could always go down to the bank at 1:30 am and ask the guard to give you access to the vault. If you can gain his trust and he lets you in, then it's obviously A-OK to rob that bank. After all, the guard let you in!

-me

Ronin · 05-10-2003, 11:49 PM

Quote:

question: if the janitor was not in support of what the cop was going to do, do you think he might have refused to allow him access to the room?

answer: the janitor does not have the authority to allow entry to anyone into the school regardless of his personal politics or perspective.

Remember, according to the officer, he was on a break and was not entering the school as a 'cop'.

The janitor should have refused to allow the citizen entry into the school based on these facts and circumstances.

If the 'cop' was 'on-duty' and had an exigent circumstance to enter the school at that hour, then he would not have needed the janitor at all.

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05-09-2003, 07:57 AM	#91
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	perhaps if the janitor thought he could trust him. i've talked my way into things by gaining the trust of strangers and putting them in a position to help me out. hey calzaer, so you are stating that the officer gained access through the threat of violence?

05-09-2003, 09:53 AM	#93
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	how is the cop's need for assistence illigitimate? perhaps next time i'm out at that time in the morning i'll give it a try, how about you? do i think a janitor should allow ANY unauthorized individual into a locked institution? i'll let that be a judgement call on the janitor's part and hold him resposible for the consequences. so lets hang the janitor!!

05-09-2003, 04:29 PM	#94
Majestyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast Ohio Posts: 2,846	I can't believe this thread is still running on pure speculation on both sides. Did I miss the interview where the janitor is quoted as to the content and nature of conversation that preceedded his admitting the officer?

05-09-2003, 07:18 PM	#95
Randi Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Freedonia Posts: 133	O.K., the core issue of abuse of position for personal ends is not speculation. Whether he had a gun on him is because that was never mentioned. None of the links on this thread has any direct quotes from the janitor in question, but apparently there are two versions: From one of the articles: Some parents said they were far more concerned with Mott�s persuading a custodian to unlock a classroom so he could photograph student work at 1:30 in the morning than anything Treece was teaching. From the other article: Mott disputes an account of the April 9 incident contained in a letter written by school Superintendent Dorothy Anderson to the police chief. Specifically, Mott disputes Anderson�s claim that he �banged on the front door� of the high school to get the attention of night custodian Arnold Cliche, and that Cliche opened the door and let him in. �It didn�t happen that way,� he said. According to Mott, he entered the school through an unlocked maintenance door, found Cliche and asked him to unlock the door to Treece�s classroom room so he could take photographs with his personal camera. Although he was on duty at the time, Mott maintains that he was on a break and wanted to photograph student projects that offended him as an American and a retired military man.(end of quote) I imagine the janitor in question is keeping a very low profile, because in either version he doesn't look too good. I imagine that the school Superintendent based her letter on the janitor's account.

05-10-2003, 01:39 AM	#96
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	I don't know how I've completely missed this thread until now! The citizen was trespassing. The use of city uniform and representation during the commission of this misdemeanor and subsequent insubordination should be covered within his agency's policy manual. If his position falls under civil service rules then there should be notice and a hearing. Does anyone have any updates on this incident? ~ I have to go...Jack's cleaners just pulled up to the Catholic church and I'm just dying to take some photos of what's inside those cool confessional booths...oh, hey, and there's a light on at the Young Republicans recruiting office. I'll have to be quick...shhhhh.

05-10-2003, 11:14 AM	#98
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	hey, you could always ask. sometimes folks let you in just like the janitor did. question: if the janitor was not in support of what the cop was going to do, do you think he might have refused to allow him access to the room?

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